Author Topic: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)  (Read 5789 times)

Offline kob3203

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Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« on: Friday 17 February 17 13:41 GMT (UK) »
I've come across this a couple of times. E.g:

Bridget Brown, baptised 23 May 1869, born 24 Jun 1869 (birth registered on 5 Aug 1869)
- Civil birth record: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/8457154262994 (the second entry)
- Baptism record: http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632227#page/101/mode/1up (halfway down right hand page)

What's the most likely explanation ?

Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline silvery

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #1 on: Friday 17 February 17 13:45 GMT (UK) »
Maybe the dates are the wrong way round.    Don't think a baptism of an unborn is possible. 
"This information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"

Offline Marmalady

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #2 on: Friday 17 February 17 13:47 GMT (UK) »
The events have been swapped -- so born May, bpt June

In those days there was no way of telling the sex of a baby before it was born, so naming / baptising the child would be difficult even if it was allowed by the church!
Wainwright - Yorkshire
Whitney - Herefordshire
Watson -  Northamptonshire
Trant - Yorkshire
Helps - all
Needham - Derbyshire
Waterhouse - Derbyshire
Northing - all

Offline kob3203

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #3 on: Friday 17 February 17 13:49 GMT (UK) »
Here's another.

William Brown, baptized 19 Feb 1871,born 5* Mar 1871,birth registered 10 Mar 1871:
- Baptism: http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632227#page/110/mode/1up (second entry on left hand page)
- Birth: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/94ca441899756 (third entry)

*I just edited the date of birth -I'd originally written 15 which was wrong,5 days before registration!
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)


Offline Maggsie

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #4 on: Friday 17 February 17 14:00 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Yes it's the wrong date.
Also on one record it says Fammer and on another it says Fanning as the mothers maiden name.
I have sent the docs. via Private Message.

Maggsie

Offline kob3203

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #5 on: Friday 17 February 17 14:06 GMT (UK) »
Maybe the dates are the wrong way round.    Don't think a baptism of an unborn is possible.
I was recently informed that a stillborn baby couldn't be baptized (at least not back then). So my guess would be that baptism of an unborn was not possible, as you say.

Regarding getting birth/baptism dates swapped - I can imagine that the father, on registering the birth, might give the date of baptism. But is it likely that the priest would write "baptized such-and-such a date" in the parish baptism register and record the date of birth,not the date of baptism ?
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #6 on: Friday 17 February 17 14:13 GMT (UK) »
The events have been swapped -- so born May, bpt June

In those days there was no way of telling the sex of a baby before it was born, so naming / baptising the child would be difficult even if it was allowed by the church!
Good point about the sex of the baby.
Getting the dates of birth/baptism swapped sounds feasible,but I have my doubts (as mentioned in my previous post).
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #7 on: Friday 17 February 17 14:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Yes it's the wrong date.
Also on one record it says Fammer and on another it says Fanning as the mothers maiden name.
I have sent the docs. via Private Message.

Maggsie

Thanks for that. Which date would you say is wrong - birth or baptism (or both)?

Seeing the Private Message you sent I note the priest's name is J.Crotty - I chuckled when I imagined a Father Jack (from "Father Ted") like figure writing the baptism entry (wrongly) with a bottle of whiskey in his hand !

P.S. I've seen too many bad transcriptions to put much reliance on them. I always prefer to look at the original documents. I've already seen the mother's maiden name written/transcribed as both Fanning and Fannen, which are apparently common variants of the same name. To me the civil birth record looks like Fannen, not Fammer - count the little humps on the n/m bit in the middle - there's not enough for a double m! 
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: Was it common for people to be baptized BEFORE they were born ? ;)
« Reply #8 on: Friday 17 February 17 14:59 GMT (UK) »
The main point of this question is that:

1) If I already have a civil birth record I don't look for a baptism record before the date of birth.

2) If I already have a baptism record I don't look for a birth record after the date of baptism.

Unless this is just a case of drunken father Jack Crotty of Craggy Island Powerstown getting the dates wrong in the register, then I need to rethink those assumptions.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)