Liffen/Leffen Bermondsey

[LesleyAField]

Hello

I'm a newbie to this site and also Genealogy. I am tracing my Husbands family at the moment on his Grandmothers Paternal side.
I have read through the thread on Londonliffen and found some useful information.
The problem I am finding is that although they all descend from John and Eliza Liffen/Leffen (different records use either spelling), there are a lot of Frederick's, John's and George's and birth dates are all about the same time.
I would be grateful for an information particularly from a direct descendant, to fill in some gaps.
I have found that due to the amount of brothers, cousins etc with the same name, my tree is quite large, but that this is the only way of making sure that the correct person is linked to correct parents/wife.

Grandmothers Father was John Frederick 1882 - 1917, his parents were John George & Louisa Kent.

Many thanks in advance.

[jim1]

Hello & welcome
Not related but who are you having a problem with ?

[KGarrad]

Just putting down some information with dates.

The only 1917 death I can see is on Commonwealth War Graves Commission?

39123 Private John Leffen, 15th Bn. Highland Light Infantry
Died 15th July 1917, age 35
Husband of Mary Lefffen


Can't see a birth (on FreeBMD) for a John Frederick?

I can see:
John Joseph Leffen, June qtr 1881
John Robert Leffen, March qtr 1882
John Henry Laffan, December qtr 1883


You really need to start with Births, Marriages and Deaths and Census Returns.

[LesleyAField]

Hi Jim1

I have a Frederick J born 1902 to John F 1882-1917.

[LesleyAField]

Hello KGarrard

Ref: "The only 1917 death I can see is on Commonwealth War Graves Commission?

39123 Private John Leffen, 15th Bn. Highland Light Infantry
Died 15th July 1917, age 35
Husband of Mary Lefffen."


This is the record for GGF, I believe he had 2 sons with his 1st wife Sophia, 1 was John born 1901 the other Frederick born 1902.

[KGarrad]

Going back, step-by-step, (because that's how I work!) . . . . .

Utilising the new GRO Index Search, which shows Mother's Maiden Names for nearly all births:

LEFFEN, FREDERICK  JOHN      CAHILL      
GRO Reference: 1902  D Quarter in ST OLAVE BERMONDSEY  Volume 01D  Page 227


Which leads to this marriage:
December qtr 1899
St Olave Bermondsey Registration District     vol 1d, page 441

Leffen, Frederick
Cahill, Agnes


The Parish Record entry is available online:

25th December 1899 at St Mary Magdelene, Bermondsey after banns
Frederick Leffen, 20, Bachelor, Leather Cutter, of 28 Rothesay Street
Agnes Cahill, 20, Spinster, Tin Worker, of 40 Decima Street

Fathers: John Leffen (deceased) and John Cahill (deceased)


2 years later, in the 1901 census:
Class: RG13; Piece: 389; Folio: 35; Page: 14
17 Chloe Street, Bermondsey

Leffen, Fred  Head  M  20  General Labourer  b Bermndsey
Leffen, Agnes  Wife  F  21  b Bermondsey
Leffen, Lizzie Louisa  Daughter  F  3 months  b Bermondsey


That leads us to this birth:
LEFFEN, FREDERICK  JOHN      KENT      
GRO Reference: 1880  J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK  Volume 01D  Page 281

[jim1]

I can see the complication.
On John's War Gratuity list he leaves the bulk (such as it was) to widow Mary & children however part of it went to a Sophia L Leffen.
Sophia Louisa Li(e)ffen was born 1904 to John Robert (leather dresser) & Sophia Louisa Leffen.
Mother Sophia died in 1906. John probably went to live with his sister Mary shortly after.
There is a 1900 marriage for a John Leffen (19) to a Sophia Green in Bermondsey. His father is listed as John Leffen leather smith (deceased).
Daughter Sophia appears to have been adopted by 1911: RG14; Piece: 1883


1901 Bermondsey:
John Leffen   19 Carman b. Bermondsey.
Sophia Leffen   19
John Leffen   3 months

1911:  RG14; Piece: 1872
You've obviously seen this but I'll put it up anyway.
So what we have of this family is Mary Jane Leffen b.1873 mmn Kent.
Frederick John Leffen b. 1880 mmn Kent.
John Robert Leffen b. 1882 mmn Kent.
The 1911 census leads one to believe that the 2 nephews are both sons of John whereas John b. 1900 is John's (b. 1882) son (m. Sophia Green) & Frederick John b. 1902 (from KGerrard's info) is son of Frederick b. 1880 (m. Agnes Cahill).

John Leffen (31) widower married Mary Lee in 1913. Wit. Agnes Leffen. Father John (deceased).
There were 3 offspring from this marriage; George b. 1913, Mary Eliz. b. 1915 & William b. 1917.

Can you tell us who your husband is descendant from ?
Is it Frederick John b. 1902 or John b. 1900 or someone else.

[LesleyAField]

Very complicated.
Most of what you have said is correct Jim, but on the 1911 census both sons belong to John Frederick (GGF) their sister (Sophia) went to live with a maternal auntie.

The Frederick John (KGerrard quotes) is on the 1911 census with his parents Frederick and Agnes.

It is all very confusing particularly as two brothers called their sons the same name and were born the same time.

[jim1]

Most of what you have said is correct Jim, but on the 1911 census both sons belong to John Frederick (GGF) their sister (Sophia) went to live with a maternal auntie.

Are we looking at the same family?
John had the middle name Robert not Frederick. He had a sister Mary Jane b. 1873 who he is living with in 1911 with nephews John b.1900 & Frederick b. 1902,
O.K. There are 2 Fredericks b. 1902 St. Olave's. 1 with the middle name William the other with the middle name John.
The Frederick William had father called George so not him.
It's possible Frederick John b. 1902 was enumerated twice. It's not that uncommon. They were living in the same street.
Is there anything that states Frederick John's father was John ?