Harris of Lye Waste

[Mary Gore]

I'm looking for information on my 3g-grandfather, John Harris, who according to the 1851 census (when he was living with second wife Martha Shaw in Birmingham) was born c1805 in Lye Waste. His son William was my 2-grandfather, who moved to Lancashire between 1841 and 1851. In 1841 William was living in Birmingham with Frances & Sarah Tandy: I think the latter may have been his aunt, i.e. a sister of John Harris. It has helpfully been suggested to me that John was christened in 1805  in Oldswinford, and that his father was John, a soldier, born in 1776, and his mother was Sarah nee Knowles, who were married at Oldswinford in 1802. I have not yet seen the original registers to confirm these details or to pursue other leads.  I would very much like to find out more about William and his forbears, including details of his father's regiment if possible. Any help gratefully received.

[trish1120]

Welcome to Rootschat.

Did John marry his second Wife after Sept 1837?
If so the Marriage Cert  will have his Fathers name/occp.

Trish

[trish1120]

Ok married 1859. Did you mean 1861 Census?
Who was his 1st Wife and when did they Marry?
When was your William born?

Yes there is a John Harris Christened 22 Feb 1805 Old Swinford to JOHN/SARAH
But there is also one same place 12 Feb 1804, Mother ELIZABETH

[jacquelineve]

 According to marriage details ..his father was John Harris -soldier.

Jackie

[Mary Gore]

Many thanks, everyone, for input. Here is a summary of information on John from second marriage cert and the census (I can't in fact find him in 1851; sorry for error):

2nd marriage:
7th March 1859 at St Martin, Birmingham
John Harris – of full age – Widower – Occupation – Lock Smith – Living at Moor Street – Father – John Harris – Occupation – Soldier
Married
Martha Shaw – of full age – Widow – Living at Moor Street – Father – Thomas Sadler – Occupation – Labourer.
Witnesses are – George Wiseman and Jane Green
http://warwickshireinfo.webspace.virginmedia.com/birmingham_st_martin_marriages_g_to_l.htm

1861 RG9/2174, Watery Lane Cottage back of Crown and Anchor, Aston. John, screw bolt turner, b Lye Waste, Worcs, with wife Martha. Also present are Martha's two children, Samuel and Louisa (age 12 and 7). Martha's birthplace is listed as Newport, Salop.

1871 Lodging with Simkin family, "labour [sic] at screw factory", "back of 207 Watery Lane,Bordesley, Aston (back-to-back cottage], married, aged 67, Martha not present. Was Martha helping one of her children? [not found in FindMyPast census search]

1881 RG11/3009 Devonshire St ("16Bk66" - assumed to be back-to-back cottage), Birmingham All Saints. John aged 76 and wife Martha age 69; grand-daughter Eliza E Jones aged 9, born Birmingham (Births Dec 1871 6d   13)

Son William was born c 1829 in Birmingham according to the 1851 census.

1841 census (tentative identification)107/1142/3 Birmingham St Martin's, Bordesley St, William age "15" with Francis Tandy (labourer, "45") and Sarah ("50"); neither Francis nor Sarah b Warwickshire. Marriage (at Handsworth, Staffs) found for this couple (1824); Sarah is nee Harris.

1851 census: lodging with Evans family in Coal Pit Lane, Bedford, Leigh, Lancs, and working as a coal miner.

He died age 35 in a workhouse hospital and seems to have been a "rum 'un" according to the local newspaper (he challenged passers-by to bare-knuckle fights, and was fined for drunkenness and breaching the peace and for drinking after hours). His children, born in Leigh between 1852 and 1863, were Mary, Martha, Jane, John, Elizabeth and two Ellens; John and the first Ellen died in childhood.

Thanks again for your help: much appreciated.