Author Topic: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901  (Read 969 times)

Offline Adnil60

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I am trying to find out if there would have been a Scottish Death Cert or Burial Record or an Inquest (Marine or Civil).
He was recorded on the "Died at Sea" Register.  But according to Newspaper Report he was pulled out of the water and died the next day.

Daily Commercial News and Shipping Lists Sydne NSW Thurs 5 Sep 1901
"THE INVERAMSAY,
After a passage of 109 days the barque  Inveramsay arrived last evening from Glasgow 
with a large general cargo. She is to the agency of Messrs. Mason Brothers Ltd.
From here the vessel proceeds to Newcastle  with part cargo.
As the result of accidents during the voyage  two seamen were lost. John Morgans, cook 
and steward, fell overboard as the barque was leaving Glasgow, and although pluckily 
rescued by Captain Crombie, finally succumbed on May 20."
---------------------
Deaths at sea, 1781-1968      Series BT 334 Box  0028 Page  13
Barque INVERAMSAY Ships No.88563 Registered Aberdeen
THOMAS CROMBIE, MASTER, BURTHEN 1321 TONS
FROM PORT OF GLASGOW TO SYDNEY, N.S.W., arrived 5TH SEPTEMBER 1901 
Ship left Glasgow 18/5/1901
John Morgans Cook/Steward (age 45 born Fishguard) Last abode Penrhos House Holyhead (Wales) died in Glasgow 20/5/1901 from effects of drowning after falling overboard into River Clyde
from his ship prior to departure to Sydney.

Thank-you





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Offline sancti

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 07 May 17 08:43 BST (UK) »
There are no deaths registered in Scotland for the name John Morgans

If he was rescued and later died on the boat would he have been buried at sea?

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Offline Forfarian

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 07 May 17 08:59 BST (UK) »
I am trying to find out if there would have been a Scottish Death Cert or Burial Record or an Inquest (Marine or Civil).
There is no death of a John Morgans in 1901 the Scottish death indexes at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.

Noting that the ship left Glasgow on the 18th, and John Morgans died on the 20th, I took a look at the 'Deaths at Sea' register on FindMyPast and I see that the transciption there of BT 334/28/13 says he died 'At Sea'. Not 'in Glasgow'. In the image of the actual register the place of death is described as 'About N 5350', W 00520'. This position is in the Irish Sea between Dublin and the Isle of Man. Therefore he did not die ashore in Glasgow, which explains the absence of a death certificate. (Where did the transcription of BT/334/2/13 you posted come from?)

Even if he had died ashore, there would certainly not have been an inquest, because there is no such process in Scots Law. If there had been any suspicious circumstances, there might have been a Fatal Accident Inquiry. See https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/fatal-accident-inquiry-records.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline IMBER

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 07 May 17 09:40 BST (UK) »
Judging by its position the ship was heading south towards Dublin/Holyhead. It's unlikely they would turn back to land him so Dublin or Holyhead are possibilities perhaps? I also note that his last place of abode is given as Holyhead. Perhaps some confusion here? Just a long shot.

Imber
Skewis (Wales and Scotland), Ayers (Maidenhead, Berkshire), Hildreth (Berkshire)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 07 May 17 09:59 BST (UK) »
No matching death in Wales (according to FreeBMD) or Ireland. Surely they would just have buried him at sea?
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline IMBER

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 07 May 17 11:07 BST (UK) »
The reports provided above seem to suggest that he died later from the effects of his immersion, not that he was recovered drowned. If they had no reasonable hope of ensuring his recovery on board then it might be argued that it would be logical to land him while there was still hope. That would be easy given they were still in the Irish Sea which provided options not available in more open waters.

Imber
Skewis (Wales and Scotland), Ayers (Maidenhead, Berkshire), Hildreth (Berkshire)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 07 May 17 11:14 BST (UK) »
The reports provided above seem to suggest that he died later from the effects of his immersion, not that he was recovered drowned. If they had no reasonable hope of ensuring his recovery on board then it might be argued that it would be logical to land him while there was still hope. That would be easy given they were still in the Irish Sea which provided options not available in more open waters.
Yes, that would be logical. But in that case there would be a death certificate, and we haven't found one in Scotland, Ireland or Wales so far.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Adnil60

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #7 on: Monday 08 May 17 07:11 BST (UK) »
Thanks people for your input.  The reason I thought he could have died in Glasgow is that I felt he might have been taken to Hospital before the Ship left port.   
Another Newspaper report said - "As the barque was hauling out from the wharf at Glasgow, the cook, John Morgans, fell into the water, but was rescued by Captain Crombie, who jumped into the 
water with a rope. Next day the cook died suddenly."
Obviously the Captain thought he was O.K.
The "Deaths at Sea" has a handwritten note on it "died from the effects of immersion in the Clyde" at 2 a.m. on the 20th, so he probably died unexpectedly in his sleep. 
Now it has been pointed out I should have see the latitude & longitude but my copy is very hard to read.
Given the ships proximity to land I would have thought the might have landed the body in Wales or Ireland but perhaps the Captain was on a tight schedule and landing with a body might have meant a couple of days of paperwork.  Or maybe they were off a very dangerous part of the Coast.
One day I might come across a family member who knows a bit more.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: John Morgans (Seaman)- Died after falling into River Clyde 20/5/1901
« Reply #8 on: Monday 08 May 17 07:42 BST (UK) »
Lat and Long details attached.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith