Author Topic: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich  (Read 4182 times)

Online osprey

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #18 on: Friday 12 May 17 18:56 BST (UK) »
I'm not following you.

the only vaguely possible marriage I gave you was the one to Rachel, all the others I have eliminated. As I said, none of the above.

If Thomas did have a son from his first marriage, why wouldn't be boarded out with a family just a few houses away in the village where he was living?

Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline janjim

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #19 on: Friday 12 May 17 23:53 BST (UK) »
Yes, thank you Osprey, I was still trying to work out if Thomas would have married when only 18 years of age to Rachel Williams, and it appears she would have been 12 years older than him, quite unusual, but possible.  Sorry having misread your previous posting,  yes, and with Rachel having died in 1836, when son Thomas was only 2 years of age, quite possible that he was living with another family.

Thomas Gwilliam's Grandmother was Elizabeth Williams, she died in 1820 at Pencoyd near Harewood. I have been to Harewood, a few years ago, see that Whitchurch is not that far away.
Looking more likely that he was married to Rachel, even though quite an age gap.

jan
New, Thorn, Bird, Ruffey, Bosley, Belcher- Newbury Berkshire
Haynes/Haines - Much Birch Herefordshire, Monmouth Wales
Kearn/Watkins- Llanllwchaiarn/Newtown, Wales, Tyberton, Herefordshire
Gwilliam - Monmouth Wales, Herefordshire
Collier, Jackson - Salford, Manchester Lancashire
Saunders - Middlesex, Devon
Benson - Edinburgh, Scotland
Callander - Falkirk, Scotland
Ambrose - Liverpool, Manchester Lancashire, Canada
Timms, Elliman - Oxfordshire, Warwickshire
Ellison - Manchester/Portsmouth Hampshir

Offline janjim

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 13 May 17 03:56 BST (UK) »
Okay, having re-read your posts, and checked copy of 1841 census for our Thomas Gwilliam and Susan Haines living at Whitchurch, I see now, yes Oak Cottage,  and a Thomas Gwillim with the Clayton family.   Looks like aged 6, from the writing, probably him, it seems obvious as you say, he was being cared for a few doors away.     I do apologise for not picking up on that previously.

Wow this could be him, I don't have access to Ancestry at the moment, but have checked UK BDM and see there is a William Gwillim who died in 1844 at Monmouth, age, I do not know, but it is possible that maybe this Thomas was living with his Father and his new wife Susannah Haines, they married in 1843.   I probably need to check Monmouth Parish Records to confirm.

Thank you so much for this Osprey.

jan
New, Thorn, Bird, Ruffey, Bosley, Belcher- Newbury Berkshire
Haynes/Haines - Much Birch Herefordshire, Monmouth Wales
Kearn/Watkins- Llanllwchaiarn/Newtown, Wales, Tyberton, Herefordshire
Gwilliam - Monmouth Wales, Herefordshire
Collier, Jackson - Salford, Manchester Lancashire
Saunders - Middlesex, Devon
Benson - Edinburgh, Scotland
Callander - Falkirk, Scotland
Ambrose - Liverpool, Manchester Lancashire, Canada
Timms, Elliman - Oxfordshire, Warwickshire
Ellison - Manchester/Portsmouth Hampshir


Offline janjim

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 14 May 17 00:42 BST (UK) »
Osprey,
At this stage, we have possibly found this young Thomas Gwilliam had died in February, 1844 aged 9 years, he was living in Monmouth, Wales.  Further checking to do, but it seems quite logical that maybe the young Thomas living with the Claytons,  then moved to Monmouth once his father decided to marry Susannah Haines in 1843.    He would have been just over 9 years of age, and seems to fit in.    So yes, looks like Rachel must have been the first wife of Thomas. 
Jan
New, Thorn, Bird, Ruffey, Bosley, Belcher- Newbury Berkshire
Haynes/Haines - Much Birch Herefordshire, Monmouth Wales
Kearn/Watkins- Llanllwchaiarn/Newtown, Wales, Tyberton, Herefordshire
Gwilliam - Monmouth Wales, Herefordshire
Collier, Jackson - Salford, Manchester Lancashire
Saunders - Middlesex, Devon
Benson - Edinburgh, Scotland
Callander - Falkirk, Scotland
Ambrose - Liverpool, Manchester Lancashire, Canada
Timms, Elliman - Oxfordshire, Warwickshire
Ellison - Manchester/Portsmouth Hampshir

Online osprey

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 14 May 17 20:12 BST (UK) »
if you use the GRO online index, you can check the age at death. You need to register, but it's free

William Gwillim aged 84 dec qtr 1841 Monmouth vol 26 pg 60 - burial in Monmouth has age of 83, abode over Monnow
The 1847 Monmouth death reg was age 2, and the one in 1851 0

Haven't as yet found a burial for poor young Thomas.

Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline janjim

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 14 May 17 23:00 BST (UK) »
Thanks Osprey, we have William Gwillim aged 75 years living with Thomas & Susan Gwillim in 1851 census, so must be another Gwillim's death in 1841.

Jan
New, Thorn, Bird, Ruffey, Bosley, Belcher- Newbury Berkshire
Haynes/Haines - Much Birch Herefordshire, Monmouth Wales
Kearn/Watkins- Llanllwchaiarn/Newtown, Wales, Tyberton, Herefordshire
Gwilliam - Monmouth Wales, Herefordshire
Collier, Jackson - Salford, Manchester Lancashire
Saunders - Middlesex, Devon
Benson - Edinburgh, Scotland
Callander - Falkirk, Scotland
Ambrose - Liverpool, Manchester Lancashire, Canada
Timms, Elliman - Oxfordshire, Warwickshire
Ellison - Manchester/Portsmouth Hampshir

Offline middlesbrough

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #24 on: Monday 15 May 17 00:03 BST (UK) »
Hi again,
If you read the census for 1851, it actually says
William gwilliam  FATHER IN LAW.

Looking at the marriage transcript for Thomas and Susannah, it says her father is William Gwilliam. I think Susannah was married previously to a Haines but her maiden name was Gwilliam. Perhaps she was a cousin of Thomas's.

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #25 on: Monday 15 May 17 00:40 BST (UK) »
Hi Middlesbrough,
Yes you are right, I agree with you about "Father in Law", and I queried that, at the time of seeing the census information.   You would expect the information was correct, and it would be Susan's father, but having done research on Susannah's father, William Haines, he was a Cooper bap Much Birch in 1782,  his first wife Sarah Essex (Mother to Susannah) died in 1830.  William and Sarah had daughters, Eleanor, Susannah, Ann and Lucy.   

William then married Mary Watkyns in 1833, they were living at the Old Shop Much Birch in 1841 census, following the trade of Cooper.   1851 census shows them living in Hereford Road aged 70 years.
But interesting to note is that Mary Watkyns came from Wattstown, Monmouth, his daughter Lucy Haines and a George Tudor were witness to Susan's marriage in 1843, she was a Servant in Monmouth and Lucy & George later married and settled in Monmouth.   Also other daughter Ann died in Monmouth.   So it seems to be that much of the Haines family settled in Monmouth

The marriage certificate of  Thomas & Susan in 1843 clearly states William Haines a Cooper, as Susan's Father and William Gwillim as Father of Thomas Gwillim, Labourer.   So in that 1851 census in Monmouth, it does show William Gwillim - father-in-law as a Labourer.     

So as a result of all of this information, I decided that William Gwillim in their census of 1851 must have been incorrect.    Of course I stand to be corrected !!  Talk about confusion.

William Haines is later shown  in 1861 census was living with his son-in-law William Cooper at the School House, Much Birch, aged 81 years and apparently died in 1862.

I await your further thoughts now.  Thanking you for your patience.




New, Thorn, Bird, Ruffey, Bosley, Belcher- Newbury Berkshire
Haynes/Haines - Much Birch Herefordshire, Monmouth Wales
Kearn/Watkins- Llanllwchaiarn/Newtown, Wales, Tyberton, Herefordshire
Gwilliam - Monmouth Wales, Herefordshire
Collier, Jackson - Salford, Manchester Lancashire
Saunders - Middlesex, Devon
Benson - Edinburgh, Scotland
Callander - Falkirk, Scotland
Ambrose - Liverpool, Manchester Lancashire, Canada
Timms, Elliman - Oxfordshire, Warwickshire
Ellison - Manchester/Portsmouth Hampshir

Offline middlesbrough

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Re: Thomas gwilliam bap 13.11.1811 Goodrich
« Reply #26 on: Monday 15 May 17 01:57 BST (UK) »
Yes I see what you mean. There is a transcription on Find My Past for the 1843 marriage and it clearly states the father of Susannah is William Gwilliam (exactly the same as Thomas's father) so probably it has been transcribed in error. That's what threw me. So we are back to looking for the burial of William sometime between 1851 and 1861. Do you have the baptism record for this William?