Author Topic: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin  (Read 479 times)

Online RoserAncestors

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« on: Tuesday 13 June 17 09:14 BST (UK) »
I was wondering whether any very kind souls would be willing to look at the attached two extracts from an administration document dated 1574 and tell me any names, dates or family relationships?

I think (from the covering page) it relates to a John Gell of Carsington in Derbsyhire. I think I am descended (according to the paper trail) from a John Gell who died, according to a couple of research sources, in 1564.


RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,938
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 June 17 10:46 BST (UK) »
Extract 1
The inve(n)torye of All the good(es) & catell(es) w(hich?) was
J(o)hn gell off carssingt(o)n at the tyme of hys death
p(rai)sed by Raffe graeterafts(?) wyll(ia)m stepell wyll(ia)m
hycchyngton and charles b(o?)the


(Someone else will probably improve on the names of the appraisers)

Extract 2
fiat adm(ini)strac(i)o bono(rum) Joh(ann)is Gell defunct(i) nup(er) du(m) vixit p(ar)och(ie) de Carssington
Kattherine Relicte & J(ohanni?) Gell ^sum(mo?)^ filio dict(i) defunct(i)
obligent(ur) Rad(ulph)us Gell de Carssington in Com(itatu) Derb’ yoma(n) & Thomas Hydock cl(er)icus
R(e)c(t)or eccl(es)ie p(ar)och(ie) de Carssington p(re)dict(e)


Let there be administration of the goods of John Gell, deceased, lately whilst living of the parish of Carsington, to Katherine the relict and J(ohn?) Gell the ^(eldest?)^ son of the said deceased
Let Ralph Gell of Carsington in the county of Derby, yeoman, and Thomas Hydock, clerk, Rector of the parish church of Carsington aforesaid, be bound.

(Not 100% certain about the ‘eldest son John Gell’ – very hard to read. Does it fit with what you know?)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online RoserAncestors

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 June 17 10:57 BST (UK) »
Thanks heaps Bookbox. Either it is of a different John Gell to the one who died in 1564 or the sources I am using are wrong about all the family relationships. The wife of John Gell who died in 1564 was Agnes and the eldest son Thomas according to a 1913 article that looks to be fairly well researched.

That article can be found here "Gells of Hopton, Some Further Notes and Corrections": http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/daj/contents.cfm?vol_id=1024

Not asking anyone to read it or do any research, I'm still working on it, was just posting that for other's reference if they stumble across this post.

Online RoserAncestors

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« Reply #3 on: Friday 16 June 17 06:24 BST (UK) »
Thanks again Bookbox. I think I might be able to speculatively place this document now so I thought I'd quickly jot down here where I think it might sit.

I am fairly confident I am descended from an Anthony Gell of Middleton who died in 1690. The 1913 article by Phillip Lyttelton Gell titled "The Gells of Hopton, Some Further Notes and Corrections" (linked to above) says this Anthony's parents were a Thomas Gell who died in 1627 [sic, it was actually 1626] and his wife Ellen Buxton. Similarly the 1817 Magna Brittania Derbyshire edition traces the Gells of Middleton back to this Thomas who died in 1626: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=yAgVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR84&lpg=PR84&dq=%22thomas+gell%22+hopton+1626+wirksworth&source=bl&ots=Zfo1DgQXtH&sig=52DM0F7dyryMK-tPYTg16sGKaSU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9vaD06LjUAhUBVrwKHad_BcUQ6AEIKzAB#v=onepage&q=%22thomas%20gell%22%20hopton%201626%20wirksworth&f=false

This Thomas did indeed marry a Ellen Buxton (in 1597 in Carsington - see the Derbyshire Marriage Index) and mentioned a son Anthony Gell in his 1626 will, and I haven't come across anything to suggest he wasn't the father of the Anthony Gell of Middleton who died in 1690. It makes sense that he was.

This Thomas seems originally to have come from Carsington - he married there and baptised his children there - despite being buried in Wirksworth. His marriage record in the Carsington parish register includes the note that he was the son of John Gell - see the Derbyshire Marriage Index transcription: http://www.derbysmarriages1538-1837.co.uk/

Carsington marriages of apparent siblings of Thomas (Ralph, Richard & Elizabeth) give more detail about this John, that his wife was Agnes and that he was a "minnr" (see the Derbyshire Marriage index). There is indeed a 1609 Carsington burial record of a John Gell with a note that he was a miner, and a 1615 burial record of an Agnes Gell with a note that she was the widow of John Gell and the mother of Ralph, Thomas & Richard.

So perhaps this John Gell who died in 1609 was the eldest son referred to in the 1574 administration document that Bookbox very helpfully deciphered/translated sections of.

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,177
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 14 April 19 22:50 BST (UK) »
Have you seen this record at The National Archives?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5920214
It includes "Anthony Gell of Middleton, yeoman, aged 60", and "Thomas Gell of Middleton, miner, aged 32"

Also:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5917014

"Documents: depositions concerning Wirksworth, Derbyshire.
Taken 28 January, 42 Eliz." (1600)
It mentions "Mr Anthony Gell" , and in the sentence before 'Raphe Bell", which I'm thinking is perhaps Gell instead of Bell. These depositions are all transcriptions on TNA.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5915688
"Plaintiffs: Anthony Gell.
Defendants: William Blackwall and John Ashenhurst.
Documents: depositions concerning landownership and rents, Wirksworth, Derbyshire.
Taken 21 March, 22 Eliz." 1580.

Several that name John Gell in the mid 1600s.

They would give you some background.

Search on The NAtional Archives Discovery page for "Gell" and 'Hannah Robb" for these documents.
Hundreds of depositions concerning mining in Derbyshire.
I only looked quickly. They deserve a more thorough viewing if you haven't come across them.


I presume you have seen all the documents on Discovery about the GEll family of Hopton?
There are thousands!

Just putting in "Anthony Gell" AND Middleton in the 1500s:

This one mentions Anthony Gell 1582.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/83c54df0-659b-4000-8cac-721a11f60e26

ANd this one in 1578
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/543b344a-70b0-4a7b-ba8e-33bad084bcd5
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online RoserAncestors

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« Reply #5 on: Monday 15 April 19 08:51 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much Goldie61, much appreciated - those documents are great! I had come across the Gell listings on the National Archives site but hadn't really waded through them all. I've now decided that I'll have to as I've just come back to this area of my tree and have realised (partly with the help of the court listings you provided) that I got it wrong (I think).

I am fairly confident that I descend from the Anthony Gell of Middleton who died in 1690 leaving a will which I have but I'm unsure of everything before that. The 1678 court listing you linked to mentions an Anthony Gell of Middleton as a yeoman aged 60 and I suspect that's him. With that in mind his is probably the baptism of an Anthony Gell son of Thomas Gell in the Wirksworth parish registers on 10 August 1617.

Anthony Gell probably married Cicely Lavorock on 27 August 1643 at Wirksworth and had the following children:
Mary 1644
Thomas 1645
Anthony 1647
Anthony abt 1649
John 1651
Unnamed 1653
Ralph 1655
Emanuell 1657
Philip 1659
Isaac 1661
James 1664
Mary 1666
Jacob 1668
Ann/Hannah 1672

I can't really identify who Thomas the 1617 father of Anthony Gell was. The secondary sources are contradictory and I'm still looking at them. Thanks again for everyone's help.

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,177
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: John Gell of Carsington, administration 1574, English & Latin
« Reply #6 on: Monday 15 April 19 11:00 BST (UK) »
So it does look as if the Thomas Gell mentioned in the first of those depositions was indeed the son of Anthony, although it doesn't specify any relationship between them in the deposition - it's not the sort of document that's concerned with people's relationships.
Thomas aged 32 in 1678 would make him born about 1646 - and you have him baptised 1645. Near enough I'd say.

I only knew about these 'depositions' as I found several of them that mention ancestors of mine around that part of Derbyshire. There would seem to be over 200 of them! I don't think they have been on The National Archives very long. At the bottom of the page it says Hannah Robb and Andy Wood's research was 2017-2018.

You never know what you might find!  :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs