Author Topic: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?  (Read 1695 times)

Offline notaninch

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How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« on: Wednesday 19 July 17 14:45 BST (UK) »
Hello

I suspect I may get a variety of answers to my question but here goes. I have an example of an ancestor taken from Burke's Peerage of a marriage circa 1680 where he married his cousin. My question is how do I interpret this. Should I assume they were first cousins or did for example 'cousin' include relatives who were further removed i.e. second or third cousins. Hope this makes sense.


Offline stanmapstone

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 19 July 17 14:48 BST (UK) »
From the OED
Cousin
a. A collateral relative more distant than a brother or sister; a kinsman or kinswoman, a relative; formerly very frequently applied to a nephew or niece. Obs.
b. In legal language formerly often applied to the next of kin, or the person to whom one is next of kin, including direct ancestors and descendants more remote than parents and children.
The strict modern sense is the son or daughter of (one's) uncle or aunt.

Stan
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Offline barryd

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 19 July 17 15:25 BST (UK) »
barryd and Ruth Newton BOWES are 1st cousins 2 times removed.  Their common ancestors are Thomas BOWES and Jane WATSON.

Horace Kenneth Kennedy-Skipton married Ruth Newton Bowes 5 June 1918 St. Peter's, Mountsorrel, Leicester,  England. They are mentioned in Burkes, Irish Nobility.

The PAF (Personal Ancestral File) system has a programme that calculates all relationships (or will not function if no relationship is detected).


Offline notaninch

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 19 July 17 16:04 BST (UK) »
barryd and Ruth Newton BOWES are 1st cousins 2 times removed.  Their common ancestors are Thomas BOWES and Jane WATSON.

Horace Kenneth Kennedy-Skipton married Ruth Newton Bowes 5 June 1918 St. Peter's, Mountsorrel, Leicester,  England. They are mentioned in Burkes, Irish Nobility.

The PAF (Personal Ancestral File) system has a programme that calculates all relationships (or will not function if no relationship is detected).

I am confident a PAF programme would verify a relationship if I had the underlying records but the problem is this was in Ireland. I cannot find a marriage index that confirms when they married. I do have evidence of who the parents were from will abstracts but no bmd records to establish how the spouses parents were related, hence my dilemma and why I am seeking advice on how to interpret the Burke's Peerage wording.


Offline JohninSussex

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 19 July 17 23:49 BST (UK) »
I would have expected Burke's Peerage to have listed the known members of the previous generations so that the spouse would appear in the pedigree.  Otherwise how would Burke's
 know they were cousins?
Rutter, Sampson, Swinerd, Head, Redman in Kent.  Others in Cheshire, Manchester, Glos/War/Worcs.
RUTTER family and Matilda Sampson's Will:

Offline notaninch

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 20 July 17 10:23 BST (UK) »
I would have expected Burke's Peerage to have listed the known members of the previous generations so that the spouse would appear in the pedigree.  Otherwise how would Burke's
 know they were cousins?

Burke's Pedigree implies the relationship by stating that Mary marries her cousin William. The entry does tell me who the parents of William are but does not name the parents of Mary. Mary's parents are not part of  William's direct line they are only related following the marriage of Mary and William,  so perfectly reasonable her parents are not in Burke's entry. I do have collateral information that gives me the names of Mary's parents; taken from an abstract of a will.

Offline Skoosh

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 21 July 17 09:21 BST (UK) »
Oscar Wilde described "Burke's Peerage!" as the greatest work of fiction published in the English language!  ;D

Skoosh.

Offline notaninch

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 21 July 17 09:56 BST (UK) »
Oscar Wilde described "Burke's Peerage!" as the greatest work of fiction published in the English language!  ;D

Skoosh.
Oscar Wilde had opinions on just about everything and while I do find some were wise and some were amusing not all were correct in my opinion so I don't suppose he would mind if I said where's the proof it is fiction. In my experience most of the information is correct most of the time. Perhaps he meant something different by it being fiction.....i.e. it was pretentious ....Peerage and Class!

Offline Skoosh

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Re: How to interpret relationships e.g. what is cousin?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 21 July 17 10:37 BST (UK) »
DNA test the lot of them & we'll see what claims & pretensions are fiction & what aint!

Skoosh.