Author Topic: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?  (Read 5095 times)

Offline Jill Eaton

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Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« on: Monday 14 August 17 13:13 BST (UK) »
I first posted about this missing relative in 2008 and am hardly any nearer finding who he actually was now than I was then.

What I DO know:

Marriage in C of E church. St Martins-in-the Fields. 4th October 1863 to Hannah Fuller (born 1832). Both partners "Of Full Age" John is a bachelor,  a labourer and his father is called James and is a carpenter by trade. Both partners living in St Martin's Lane (no house number)

Witnesses: Charles Perks and M. H (probably Hannah's sister Martha) Fuller


November 1865. Birth of twin daughters - Hannah Mary and Mary (not very imaginative!)
born to Hannah Fuller. Living at St Catherine's Road, Notting Dale

November 1865. Catholic baptism at St Francis of Assisi chapel, Notting Hill.
Godparents:
Georgius (george?) Wilkinson
Brigitta (Bridget?) Gibbons
Dionysius (Dennis) Leary
Maria Leary.

I've tried to track the godparents but with no biographical details I can't be certain I've got the correct people. Their names aren't exactly rare ??? :'(
Possible candidates appear to come from Limerick but of course that doesn't mean John came from there as well.

I can't find a suitable candidate for John on the 1861 census. Labourer, bachelor, born before 1842.

I'm fairly certain that his wife Hannah was C of E so John was probably the catholic in the marriage.

By 1871 his wife Hannah is now a widow and living in Westminster 1871 RG10/120/25/Page43.

So John has died before 1871. Without a DOB finding his death date is a nightmare. There are loads of John William's dying in the Westminster area between his daughter's baptism in 1865 and the 1871 census.


So what I DON'T know....

His year of birth
His location of birth. Is he actually from England at all?
His date of death

I've checked the Westminster rate books for the years 1861 to 1865. There is a Charles Perks (wedding witness) living at 110 St Martin's Lane. There is also a John Williams living at 115 St Martin's Lane but there is no biographical information - age, etc, so I can't say for certain this is definitely my John Williams. And A John Williams is still living in St Martin's Lane at the time of the twins birth where he should have been living in Notting Dale.

Any ideas where I go from here?
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

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Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 14 August 17 13:26 BST (UK) »
Just to add that Hannah Fuller (his wife) came from Prittlewell in Essex and asked on Essex lookups for a baptism. Hannah was indeed C of E. Just had this confirmed.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

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Offline jim1

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 14 August 17 15:02 BST (UK) »
Notting Dale as far as I'm aware was in the Kensington Reg. District. I can see only 1 possible candidate: Mar. Q 1871 aged 48.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline suzard

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 14 August 17 15:22 BST (UK) »
1851 Charles Perks was unmarried age 44 occ Stationer b St Martins in the Fields and living at 110 St martins Lane

by 1861 he had married and was living in Chiswick#Charles Perks head M 54 master Stationer
Emily wife 34
Emily daughter 7
Frank son 7
Anne daughter 3
all b St martin in the Fields
RG9 780 9 12

so Charles fathered twins too??

don't know if this will help at all

Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline louisa maud

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 14 August 17 15:30 BST (UK) »
Possible baptisms might help
St Martin Inn Fields
Emily Perks
born 23/06/1853
baptised 07/08/1853
father Charles Perks
mother Emily Marian
of 110 St Martins Lane
father's occupation stationer

Charles Perks
born 28/08/1854
baptised ?/10/1854
other details as above

Possibly MMN Warner

Louisa Maud
Census information is Crown Copyright,
from  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Garner, Marylebone Paddington  Northolt Ilford
Garner, Devon
Garner New Zealand
Maddieson
Parkinson St Pancras,
Lethbridge Paddington Slough
Jenkins Marylebone Paddington
Mizon/Mison/Myson Paddington
Tindal Marylebone Paddington
Tocock, (name changed to Ellis) London
Southam Marylebone, Paddington
Bragg Lambeth 1800's
Edermaniger(Maniger) Essex Kent Canada (Toronto)
Coveney Kent Lambeth
Sondes

Online coombs

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 14 August 17 15:53 BST (UK) »
I have looked on the 1851 censuses for any John Williams born 1835-1845 living in the London area with father James and not found a James who was a carpenter.

There was 65 John Williams born 1835-1845 with father James alive in the 1851 census (all over England) so would take a while to check all of them. Unless James changed his occupation, it is likely that John was not from London originally. Or he was born earlier than 1835.

UPDATE Just checked the 30 odd John Williams son of James born 1825-1835 in England and none of the James' were carpenters. As said, maybe he was from Wales or elsewhere.
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline louisa maud

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 14 August 17 16:02 BST (UK) »
Charles Perks shown above 1871 showing born in Westminster, was he John's brother

Charles and Emily Marian are listed on 1871,
Charles died Sept 1871
1881 and 1901 Emily M has most of her children at home with her in Wandsworth, all males working

BUT
Charles isn't who we are looking for , what other information do you have on this family Jill,  do want any further information on Charles and his family ?

LM
Census information is Crown Copyright,
from  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Garner, Marylebone Paddington  Northolt Ilford
Garner, Devon
Garner New Zealand
Maddieson
Parkinson St Pancras,
Lethbridge Paddington Slough
Jenkins Marylebone Paddington
Mizon/Mison/Myson Paddington
Tindal Marylebone Paddington
Tocock, (name changed to Ellis) London
Southam Marylebone, Paddington
Bragg Lambeth 1800's
Edermaniger(Maniger) Essex Kent Canada (Toronto)
Coveney Kent Lambeth
Sondes

Online coombs

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 14 August 17 16:15 BST (UK) »
Just checked all 1851 census John Williams with father James all over England and no carpenters for any of the James', plenty of ag labs and miners and a carver and gilder.

James could have died by 1851 though or changed his occupation, or yes, was from Wales, Ireland, Scotland or elsewhere.
Researching:

LONDON, Coombs, Roberts, Auber, Helsdon, Fradine, Morin, Goodacre
DORSET Coombs, Munday
NORFOLK Helsdon, Riches, Harbord, Budery
KENT Roberts, Goodacre
SUSSEX Walder, Boniface, Dinnage, Standen, Lee, Botten, Wickham, Jupp
SUFFOLK Titshall, Frost, Fairweather, Mayhew, Archer, Eade, Scarfe
DURHAM Stewart, Musgrave, Wilson, Forster
SCOTLAND Stewart in Selkirk
USA Musgrave, Saix
ESSEX Cornwell, Stock, Quilter, Lawrence, Whale, Clift
OXON Edgington, Smith, Inkpen, Snell, Batten, Brain

Offline suzard

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Re: Almost 10 years on and STILL can't identify John Williams - any ideas?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 14 August 17 16:25 BST (UK) »
I looked for John  Williams in 1861 in St martin in the fields

found a John Williams age 24 soldier in barracks b. Lancaster

there was another John Williams didn't make a note -he was birth not known living under the arches

Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk