Author Topic: Where to look for Irish born (c 1830s), ancestors who'd moved to London in 1850s  (Read 504 times)

Offline LizM-NS

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I had some excellent help from members Millipede, Dundee and KGarrad back in June and thanks to them I now have the 1861 marriage certificate of the relatives I was searching for. BUT I'm really hoping to find birth details for both of these people from Ireland but not having much luck so far using Free BMD, GRO (doesn't go back far enough for births of these folks - and not sure if it includes Ireland), Find my Past and Ancestry, so, any suggestions for where to look (or how to look better!!!) would be great.

The marriage took place on 15 December 1861, in St Mary's Chapel, Roman Catholic church, City of London and the couple were James Kelly, age 27 (so born about 1836), whose father was Michael Kelly, also a general labourer (don't know if he was actually still alive, or at the wedding). James was a bachelor and general labourer living then at Montagne Court, Bishopsgate, but I know from help on here and census records that he was born in Limerick.

He married widow Hannah Hayes, age 26 (born around 1837), whose maiden name I learned (thanks to member Dundee) was Collins, and her father's name on the marriage certificate confirms this is probably the right track as it's Timothy Collins, General Labourer. She had a son from previous marriage, born around 1858 John Hayes/ Hays. From the 1881 census record, she is shown as being born in Kerry, and in the 1871 census record her name appears as Honora. At that time of their marriage she was living in Smith's Buildings, Bishopsgate and was a milk seller.

It would be really interesting to find out more precisely where they were both born in Ireland and who their mothers were.

An incidental observation/surmise, not really a question; because of the dates of their birth and estimated arrival in England, along with the fact they were from the south of Ireland, I've been wondering if their families were victims of the Irish famine.

Thanks in advance for any offers of routes/roots to explore!
Manning (Pinner - Middlesex, maybe Bristol)
Walters (Hertfordshire)
Lockett (Sheffield, Manchester, maybe Cheshire)
Jackson (Hampshire/Wiltshire)
Hemingway (Yorkshire)
Frith (Sheffield, Derbyshire)
Armitage (Sheffield)
Wentworth (Harrow, Oxfordshire)
Tibbitts (East London)
Milner (South London)
Rudd (Hertfordshire)

Offline Sinann

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Re: Where to look for Irish born (c 1830s), ancestors who'd moved to London in 1850s
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 29 August 17 17:20 BST (UK) »
Registration of births didn't start in Ireland until 1864 so you need Baptisims.
http://registers.nli.ie/
You'll get some Kerry transcripts but no Limerick here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/

Online KGarrad

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Re: Where to look for Irish born (c 1830s), ancestors who'd moved to London in 1850s
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 29 August 17 17:38 BST (UK) »
Just a note of explanation ;D

The Catholic Parish Registers (at registers.nli.ie) are not indexed.
You need to search for a parish and browse the pages of the register ::)

Those on Irishgenealogy however are indexed.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline LizM-NS

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Re: Where to look for Irish born (c 1830s), ancestors who'd moved to London in 1850s
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 29 August 17 19:29 BST (UK) »
Thanks both. No appropriate date results for James and nothing for Miss Collins sadly!
Manning (Pinner - Middlesex, maybe Bristol)
Walters (Hertfordshire)
Lockett (Sheffield, Manchester, maybe Cheshire)
Jackson (Hampshire/Wiltshire)
Hemingway (Yorkshire)
Frith (Sheffield, Derbyshire)
Armitage (Sheffield)
Wentworth (Harrow, Oxfordshire)
Tibbitts (East London)
Milner (South London)
Rudd (Hertfordshire)


Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Where to look for Irish born (c 1830s), ancestors who'd moved to London in 1850s
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 29 August 17 20:14 BST (UK) »

An incidental observation/surmise, not really a question; because of the dates of their birth and estimated arrival in England, along with the fact they were from the south of Ireland, I've been wondering if their families were victims of the Irish famine.


You ask why your ancestors might have left Ireland. I am sure they left for the same reasons that several million others did. To find work. Ireland has very few natural resources (no oil, coal, iron ore etc) and so did not benefit from the industrial revolution in the 1800s, the way Scotland, England, the US, Canada & Australia did, which created hundreds of thousands of comparatively well-paid new jobs in new industries (coal mining, steel making, railways, ship building etc). So that was a big pull factor. There had also been a huge population explosion in Ireland going up from about 3 million people in 1750 to 8 million in 1830. There simply werenít jobs for all those people. In much of Ireland the only employment was subsistence farming topped up in Ulster and one or two other areas with a bit of linen weaving. And then the straw that broke the camelís back, along came the famine, numerous times throughout the 1800s. The worst period was when the potato crop failed almost completely 3 years in a row in the late 1840s, and then partially several more years after that.

Other factors led to the continued emigration too, eg early mechanisation on farms. With new machines to turn the soil and plant seed, farmers no longer needed an army of agricultural labourers to help on the farm. So those jobs were rapidly disappearing.

There was a massive tide of migration all through that century, including long before the famine. All the famine did was speed the tide up.
Elwyn

Offline LizM-NS

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Re: Where to look for Irish born (c 1830s), ancestors who'd moved to London in 1850s
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 29 August 17 23:54 BST (UK) »
Thanks for those really interesting insights Elwyn. This is my husband's family and we only learned a couple of months ago that they had Irish ancestors - it has been a bit of a revelation for various reasons. Neither of us know enough about Irish history so a discovery like this raises all sorts of questions and it's too easy to focus on answers that are a bit familiar, such as the famine, to quickly satisfy your curiosity!
So unearthing more information about them could help us narrow down the date they came to England, and perhaps offer a better perspective on their lives before they left Kerry and Limerick.
Thanks again.
Liz
Manning (Pinner - Middlesex, maybe Bristol)
Walters (Hertfordshire)
Lockett (Sheffield, Manchester, maybe Cheshire)
Jackson (Hampshire/Wiltshire)
Hemingway (Yorkshire)
Frith (Sheffield, Derbyshire)
Armitage (Sheffield)
Wentworth (Harrow, Oxfordshire)
Tibbitts (East London)
Milner (South London)
Rudd (Hertfordshire)