Author Topic: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter  (Read 8621 times)

Offline rosball

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #90 on: Saturday 16 September 17 18:00 BST (UK) »
I'm afraid it will be about a week before I can get to Archives Office.

But there is no rush to family history  :)

adding : Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research so she has been very gracious about us all gate-crashing   ;D  But yes he is such an interesting man that we all want to help her to find out more about him.   

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Offline nowornever

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #91 on: Sunday 17 September 17 00:10 BST (UK) »
No problems Ros- just grateful there are people like you helping people like me.
And you're right, no rush, they're not going anywhere.
Pauline

Offline nowornever

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #92 on: Sunday 17 September 17 00:22 BST (UK) »
Jamjar
I can NOT believe I queried the Willcocks  family. How? Sleep deprivation?
 Because I was trying to go at everyone elses  speed probably, I'm sure I'm not the first to say that there is pressure trying to handle all the responses.
I only included some, unrelated info, to show that I keep all searches just in case a clue is finally realised.
So thanks - seems you have been spot on with yours..
Pauline


Offline majm

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #93 on: Sunday 17 September 17 03:22 BST (UK) »
... Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research so she has been very gracious about us all gate-crashing ...
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Ros, I have not gate-crashed this thread.   In fact, I am still waiting to learn the name and identifying details of the ancestor that our OP shares with the Thomas Lockley who married Ellen Hunter in 1891.
 :) I am quite sure that some of her grandchildren did not ever refer to her as Grannie although our OP has used that word and spelling.  Perhaps some other of her grandchildren were encouraged to address her as Grannie but the grandchildren I am aware of simply did not.   You may draw your own conclusion as to how I ‘know’ that some of her grandchildren did not refer to Ellen as Grannie, but  I am not a grandchild.
 :) I am quite sure that many RChatters familiar with NSW researching will agree with me that a farm with 2 horses, 5 cows and 230 sheep in the 1890s and 1900s at Boree would provide only a subsistence level of living for a family.  Some of the properties in that district were running 15,000 head of sheep in that era. 
 :) The Thomas Lockley listed on the PROV passenger list arriving October 1879 is shown there as English, farmer aged 43.    If the passenger provided accurate information about himself, then he was likely born 1835, 1836 or 1837, but our OP has recently posted 14 September 1839 as date of birth of her ancestor. 
 :) Ancestry has uploaded a lot of Western Australia’s convict records.   One clearly shows that the official record for the convict Thomas gainfully employed from as early as 1868, and was on conditional release in 1871.  His eight year sentence was completed in 1872.  The same digitised official record notes he embarked on the Charlotte Padbury, and my earlier post shows the date he left WA as 5 January 1878.    May I note that many learned family history buffs across decades would share the following “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”.   So to me, the dots between the convict departing WA in 1878 and the passenger arriving Sydney in 1879 are simply not yet joining up.   Has the ship’s log been checked for any mention of him, where did he disembark etc.   Just because the OP has not found him on the UK 1881 census does NOT mean the chap marrying in NSW in 1891 is him,  and just because a chap arrived in October 1879 does not mean he is either the convict or the one who married in 1891. Nor does it disqualify those chaps as candidates.  Simply put,  the research is not yet joining the dots.   
 :) Earlier in the thread I effectively wrote about each family history buff being responsible for setting their own standards of ‘proof’ when determining who to include in their own tree, and that it is not my concern what standards our OP has set for her own research.   I am concerned though when there’s information shared on public forums particularly when I see the chance of a shared ancestor. So when I ask fairly standard family history questions about the ancestors named in there, and I indicate I have further information, and I am not given answers that make good sense my sense of concern heightens.   I become concerned about the method of research ...  For example,  I offered an alternative to Robert Hughes The Fatal Shore when researching WA convicts, and I noted that Hughes book addresses NSW, Norfolk Island and Tasmania and like you also noted, I noted a different timeframe.   I contrast our OP’s lack of acknowledgement of that contribution (the 106 page pdf) with her acknowledgement of my armchair check of the NSW BDM online index sighting of Ellen and Edward HUNTER’s son born 1886. 
 :) To me, family history researching is about striving to obtain the primary records and in doing so, to learn about the context, so while it is good that our OP found Hughes book, it is also important to note that his book should not be considered a reliable authoritative book on WA convictism.   Researching history (family, local, convictism or any other 'classification) does not commence with the introduction of the Internet.  The first Challis Professor of History at Sydney Uni was appointed back in the 1890s.  He researched and wrote on the then existing resources he found for Australian History.  From memory his name was Arnold Wood.  Fred Wood (his son) wrote the 1930s text book used in schools ... it was titled A Concise History of Australia. He migrated to NZ taking up a history professorship there.     
 :) I wonder if the WA convict records were filmed back in the 1940s as part of the AJCP (Australian Joint Copying Project) and if so, then these would likely be available in England.   A quick Google search seems to show that it is so.   
https://www.nla.gov.au/microform-australian-joint-copying-project   
http://cms.slwa.wa.gov.au/dead_reckoning/other_material/australian_joint_copying_project
 :) There are other factoids but I have much more enjoyable things to do that spend time on my PC typing replies on a sunny Sunday midday.   I certainly do not make a habit of reading threads and posting at about 3 a.m. on a Sunday morning and then possible adding to a post in the pre-dawn hours.   I am turning off notifications to this thread.   
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Offline sparrett

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #94 on: Sunday 17 September 17 04:23 BST (UK) »


adding : Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research so she has been very gracious about us all gate-crashing   ;D  But yes he is such an interesting man that we all want to help her to find out more about him.

Not sure about the term gate-crashing in this context.

Hello Australia
I am GT GT niece of Thomas Lockley who arrived Sydney 1879 and married widow Ellen A Hunter in 1891.
If anyone is doing their family tree out there for this family I would love to get in contact .
 
Pauline

I have very often seen requests couched in these, or similar, words.

It is often, but not always, a different way of requesting support and research help on a certain family line.

Our OP (or a very close relative of hers) phrased it differently a few months ago on the other forum thread.
 
http://www.familytreecircles.com/lockley-hunter-holden-reed-willcocks-of-junee-paramatta-nsw-67403.html
Saying-
“Any information on his descendants would be wonderful”

To which there was no response on that forum that I can see :(

Ros made the first kind offer in Reply#2 about a lookup to assist the search.

And just a few posts ago I see-
No problems Ros- just grateful there are people like you helping people like me.

Pauline

So no gate-crashing I can see  ;)
Just the usual team doing their usual good work.

Sue


 
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Offline rosball

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #95 on: Sunday 17 September 17 08:26 BST (UK) »
Sue I am well aware that I was the first one to chime in and that's why the term gate-crashers was a joke against me - hence the grinning face.

As I said we all want to help find more info about him as he is such an interesting man.

adding: Pauline has expressed gratitude to everyone who has helped so is welcoming input from everyone  :)
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Offline nowornever

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #96 on: Monday 18 September 17 01:12 BST (UK) »
 “Pauline didn't originally ask for our help with her research.”  Ros

This is accurate. I was hoping that some member of the family might pick up on the names mentioned and get in touch – eventually, if they were researching this.
 One phone call would probably confirm/ deny the accuracy, dare I say. Depends on what we each know of course. I was happy to just leave the enquiry out there. That’s why I posted In Aust. ( I hadn’t really looks at my files for Australia for some time as I was engrossed in another brickwall, now virtually concluded, so was rusty)
But some splendid help was offered and so the story began to unfold

( Hope you can see the “gatecrashing” was tongue in cheek” There was no malice in that. Smile)

Even though Majm has decided to quit I will answer some comments for others if interested. I had prepared some other information that she was insistent upon regarding marriage certs etc but she can ask faster than I can provide so I will add to her latest post

“I am quite sure that some of her grandchildren did not ever refer to her as Grannie although our OP has used that word and spelling.” 
It’s a generic term. The mind boggles. Is this a bit pedantic?  What was she known as then? What do grandchildren call grandparents? I am known as “Nanna” if anyone wants to record that.  Like this matters. Does it? Or is it evidence?

“…a farm with 2 horses, 5 cows and 230 sheep in the 1890s and 1900s at Boree would provide only a subsistence level of living for a family.  Some of the properties in that district were running 15,000 head of sheep in that era”
That is disappointing news. I was hoping he had made his fortune.. But he arrived at 40yrs with nothing except determination. Maybe there’s a gold seam running just below ground. Forever the optimist.

“If the passenger provided accurate information about himself, then he was likely born 1835, 1836 or 1837, but our OP has recently posted 14 September 1839 as date of birth of her ancestor”

That was his date of birth but even the prison records, or other documents such as censuses, were slightly wide of the mark. And there is no doubt that they locked the correct person up. Most of us “history buffs” accept that there can be a slight variation regarding dates in a time that there were usually no celebrations on the day, few official documents requesting the information, or a need to remember. Just a need to survive.

.  “Simply put,  the research is not yet joining the dots.” 
I couldn’t agree with you more. But it looks very promising to me. There are more checks I should be doing and will. Back to my first point, maybe a relative will get in contact and verify some of my research. And a full marriage cert showing his mother's maiden name should clinch it because that's not common knowledge.

“….I offered an alternative to Robert Hughes The Fatal Shore when researching WA convicts, and I noted that Hughes book addresses NSW, Norfolk Island and Tasmania and like you also noted, I noted a different timeframe.   I contrast our OP’s lack of acknowledgement of that contribution …….”

Because I can’t keep up with you. However I had prepared the quote to answer you that had led me to believe he would have needed to be pardoned before heading home, but, I was listening to others who felt it was not necessary after he had served his time. Maybe these pardons were given to convicts still serving their time for whatever reason and, on rereading and noting the term “from bondage”, I now think that is the case. I only asked for opinions and clarification as to what others thought. For the benefit of others interested: -

Quote: - “The Fatal Shore” Robert Hughes  Page 307
“There were only three ways in which the law might release a man from bondage. The first, though the rarest, was an absolute pardon from the governor, which restored him to all rights including that of returning to England. The second was a conditional pardon, which gave the transported person citizenship within the colony but no rights to return to England. The third was the Ticket of Leave. The convict who had been given a Ticket of Leave no longer had to work as an assigned man for a master. He was also free from the claims of forced government labour. He could spend the rest of his sentence working for himself, wherever he pleased, as long as he stayed within the colony. He was, as the phrase went, “on his own hands”, in contrast to the assigned man who was merely said to be “off the store”


“….with her acknowledgement of my armchair check of the NSW BDM online index sighting of Ellen and Edward HUNTER’s son born 1886.” 

It was at this point that I felt inadequate. Once I had discovered Parthenia I didn’t bother to look more because I wanted to concentrate on the possible children of ”Thomas” . & Ellen- my blood line. But even a simple “thank you” for finding Albert.......

I’m sorry folks but this hasn’t turned out as I would have liked. I feel guilty that responses haven’t been answered fast enough but be fair and look at how many links there are and requests for proof/confirmation. I couldn’t be more grateful for some wonderful information but please don’t fall out with each other – you’re a great team with specific roles to play in the name of “family” history
Thank you all. I will perservere
Pauline

Offline muss

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #97 on: Monday 18 September 17 08:52 BST (UK) »
HI

  Lila Joan Lucas, Ronald George Lucas and Isabel Christina Reed  1963 Elect roll  at Northcote st Swansea/ Swansea Heads, NSW.  They may have been cremated at Newcastle Crem Beresfield.

 I can check funeral notices for you when I am next in Newcastle.

Muss

Offline Jamjar

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Re: NSW Lockley descendants? Holden;Reed; Willcocks;Hunter
« Reply #98 on: Monday 18 September 17 09:15 BST (UK) »
HI

  Lila Joan Lucas, Ronald George Lucas and Isabel Christina Reed  1963 Elect roll  at Northcote st Swansea/ Swansea Heads, NSW.  They may have been cremated at Newcastle Crem Beresfield.

 I can check funeral notices for you when I am next in Newcastle.

Muss

Isabella at Sandgate Cemetery

REED Isabel Christina 19-11-1976 Anglican 3 Section 177 Lot 54

Headstone photo: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kqs/

Buried with Birch:

Eric John aged 9 years 10 months and Lesley Gladys aged 67 (I think)

102063/1983 BIRCH Lesley Gladys parents GORDON and CHRISTINA ISABELLA

13039/1955 BIRCH Eric John parents PHILIP JOHN and LESLEY GLADYS MAYFIELD

22838/1942 BIRCH Philip John to REED Lesley Gladys LIVERPOOL

Jamjar
Atkinson; Badier; Cameron; Grant; Howie; Jardine; Jenkins; Kerr; Lawardorn; Lee; Linton; Lonie; McConnell; Morgan; Morrison; Murphy; O'Leary; Paton; Pratt; Robb; Williams