Ann Jane Rivers née Kinread

[Luce]

My great great grandmother, Annie Radcliffe Rivers was born 20th September 1869 to Thomas Rivers and Ann Jane Kinread (birth certificate).She was baptised on 31st October in New Brighton, Cheshire.

Annie Radcliffe Rivers, aged 18 months old is found in the 1871 Census in  17 Lime Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, with her Mother (ref RG10/3787/112 p 6). Her mother, Ann Jane Rivers, is from the Isle of Man and has given her age as 30, so born in about 1841.
.
1881 Census (ref RG11/3624/100 p29) Annie Radcliffe Rivers is aged 11 and a boarder in Mount Pleasant, Liverpool. I think her mother is the one above her, also a boarder. However, this person is down as “Ann Jane Slatch”. She is from the Isle of Man and a widow, but this time born in 1831. I haven’t found any Rivers/Kinread/Slatch marriages nor can I think of any names Slatch could be mistaken for, to confirm if it is her.

I've found a potential marriage for Ann Kinread and Thomas Rivers in 1859. Thomas’ age is given as 24 (so born about 1835) and Ann Kinread’s age is given as 28 (so born about 1831). Ann’s father is Charles Kinread, a Blacksmith.

Assuming this is correct, I've found a potential baptism of  Ann Jane Kinread on 28th August 1831 with parents Charles Kinread and Ann Radcliffe, in Ramsey, Isle of Man. I think this is fairly likely due to the age given on the Marriage Certificate and the fact that her daughter is given the middle name “Radcliffe”. There is no occupation given for the father in the  transcription that I have seen to help confirm it.

However, on the research papers on the Isle of Man family history society seem to suggest differently. Section 4.20.2 on http://www.iomfhs.im/resources/lawsons/v3/kinrade-maughold.pdf suggest that the Ann Kinread baptised on 28th August in Ramsey married James Fargher in 1853. It also suggests that her Mother was Elizabeth rather than Ann.

Using the GRO Birth index, I can only find one sibling for Annie Radcliffe Rivers, a brother, Thomas Henry Rivers. He was born 6th july 1861 in Liverpool and his parents are given as Ann Jane Kinread and Thomas Rivers (Birth Certificate). He appears to have been baptised in Andreas, Isle of Man. He was born in Liverpool and his parents are given as Annie Kinrade and Thomas Rivers. He potentially appears on the 1871 Census in Andreas, Isle of Man, living with his Grandmother, Elizabeth Kinrade, and her brother, Charles Radcliffe. Thomas Henry Rivers on the census was born in Liverpool and is aged 9 in 1871 (RG10/5772/157 p 14).this has been Mistranscribed as Rivey or Riverts.  This same Thomas Henry Rivers appears to have died in 1876, aged 15, in Andreas, Isle of Man.

The research papers on the Isle of Man Family History Society mention Thomas Henry Rivers. Section 14.8.6 on http://www.iomfhs.im/resources/lawsons/v1/radcliffe.pdf focuses on Elizabeth Kinread. It mentions he living with her grandson, Thomas Rivers of Liverpool but in the earlier section ( Section 4.20.2 on http://www.iomfhs.im/resources/lawsons/v3/kinrade-maughold.pdf ) None of her children marry anyone with the name Rivers.

Do you think I have the correct parents of Ann Jane Kinread?

Are Elizabeth Radcliffe and Ann Radcliffe the same person?

Anything you can add or any opinions on what I've found so far would be helpful.


Thank you

[Daisypetal]

Hi,

Welcome to RootsChat,


I have found this marriage which could be Ann Jane to a "SLATCH",


Drew STRETCH    Sep Q 1874    Liverpool    8b  448
Anne Jane RIVERS 

It looks like Drew might have been a bit older than Ann, I found this death,

Drew STRETCH
Sep Q 1880    Liverpool    8b  157
Age:  69
 
His probate record gives the same address as where the widowed Annie is living in 1881,

Drew STRETCH
27 Sep 1880   The will of Drew STRETCH late of Benson Street in the city of Liverpool who died 9 September 1880 at Benson Street was proved at Liverpool by John Francis LATARCHE of 31 Newington in the said City Basket importer the sole executor.



The records I have found show that James FARGHER married in 1853 to an Anne KINRADE that had a father called Thomas,

Isle of Man, Select Parish Registers, 1598-1936

13 Nov 1853
Lonan, Isle of Man 

James FARGHER 
Single
Father:  James FARGHER

Anne KINRADE
Single
Father:  Thomas KINRADE 


and Ancestry has this transcription with a link to the imuseum, but when I search there it doesn't seem to give her father's name, maybe they would be able to check it if you contacted them.

http://www.imuseum.im/search/people/


Marriage
13 Nov 1853
Lonan, Isle of Man

Anne KINRADE
Spouse: James FARGHER   

James FARGHER
Bachelor
Groom's father: James FARGHER
Spinster.
Bride's father: Thomas KINRADE


This would fit with this baptism,


Baptism
14 Feb 1823
Andreas, Isle of Man
Ann KINREAD
Parents: Thomas Kinread & Catherine Kinread (née Boyde)


In 1861 and 1871 the Ann wife of James FARGHER says she is born in Andreas.


That's all I can see today

Regards,
Daisy

[Blue70]

The Lawson research is wrong about this person as you pointed out here is Ann Jane's baptism showing father as Charles and mother as Ann:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXY-5C5S


Here is the 1853 Lonan marriage mentioned by Lawson showing that the Anne Kinrade who married James Fargher was the daughter of Thomas Kinrade not Charles:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XZTB-2W8



Blue

[Blue70]

Here is the 1859 Rivers/Kinread St John CE Liverpool marriage for others to have a look at:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G96J-W2PK?cat=261014


I think the mother's name was Elizabeth, perhaps Elizabeth Ann?, the census records have her as Elizabeth and daughter Elizabeth's baptism says Elizabeth. Here is the 1851 IOM census showing Ann with mother Elizabeth and sister Elizabeth:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGRS-FJW


Sister Elizabeth's 1833 baptism:-

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXY-53B7


In 1851 mother Elizabeth was a married woman but in 1861 and 1871 she was a widow so Charles appears to have died as Lawson said between 1851 and 1861. 



Blue

[Daisypetal]

Hi Blue,

I just wanted to thank you for finding the Isle of Man info at familysearch, I didn't know it was there so it will be very helpful in future searches


There is a baptism for a Charles KINREAD, son of Charles KINREAD and Elizabeth RATCLIFF,

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9Q6-NJVR

He could have died the same year, transcribed as KINCADE, buried 05 Aug 1830

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6189-HYR?i=307&cc=1784428


That means that there are children either side of Ann Jane baptised as to Charles and Elizabeth, I think that "Ann" mother of Ann Jane could have been written by mistake.

 
Daisy

[Blue70]

You're welcome. If anyone is wondering what Manx records are on Family Search see the links posted here:-

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=771330.0


Blue

[Luce]

Hi Daisy & Blue

Thanks so much for your help.

I'm awaiting the certificate for the Rivers / Stretch Marriage.

I'm glad you also think that Ann & Elizabeth Radcliffe are the same person, its nice to have other people agree with you!