Stoneavaich - Glenconlas as it was known

[Indiana.59]

Thanks for the information and apologies for the disruption. I know that Duncan Shaw was a Gunner in the Royal Horse Artillery and discharged after amputation of his right forearm but no year given with this information (I have someone looking into this for me for a date). And that Alexander Shaw converted to Catholicism to marry Elspet. Alexander was press-ganged into the navy twice.  My father has his release papers still. Alexander remarried after Elspeth’s death - Isbella Munro, After the Navy he became a farmer in Stronavaich.  I have Alexanders father as Duncan Shaw (snr) son of Farquhar Shaw who married Janet Shaw from Kirkmichael Baniff ( diff Shaw line), Janet was born 26 Dec 1765 so maybe married about 1784 (my father thought), although I think I have found parish records to say marriage was 9 March 1791.
Janet Shaw's father was Alexander ‘Alistair’ Shaw of ‘Inchrory’ possibly in Glen Avon, near Tomintoul, married  Elspet Farquharson. I will leave you with this until you are settled again. No rush for me as I no longer live in the Uk and have limited internet access. Thank you for the information provided so far. Looking forward to finding out more. XScot

Name: Duncan Shaw
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 22
Birth Year: abt 1828
Birth Place: Kirkmichael, Tomintoul, Banff
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 9 Apr 1850
Regiment:    6 Horse Artillery
Rank: Gunner

Name: Duncan Shaw
Enlistment Age:    20
Discharge Age:    22
Birth Date: abt 1828
Birth Place: Kirkmichael, Banff
Enlistment Year: 1848
Discharge Year: 1850
Regiment:    Royal Horse Artillery

There is a document, but; it cannot be shared . . .

Name: Duncan Shaw
Regiment:    Royal Regiment of Horse Artillery
Residence Date:    9 Apr 1850 - Fort George
Document Type: Regimental Registers of Pensioners
Died: I can't make it out, but; it was added as an after note in the last column of 1854 - I think aged 24, but; it is followed by an exclamation mark . . .

Then we come to a headstone erected in memory of a Duncan Shaw by his son in Dairy cemertey in Edinburgh, died 30th August 1854, and also in memory of Will Henderson died 28 Jan 1854 aged 65, this only connects if you know who the Will Henderson is as Duncan Shaw is up aged 50 . . . !

[Indiana.59]

I have found 4 births as follows:

John Shaw B: 10/4/1820 - Tomintoul
Alexander Shaw B: 1/11/1824 - Tomintoul *4 year gap from John
Duncan Shaw B: 15/8/1826 - Tomintoul * 2 year gap from Alexander
Elspet Shaw B: 4/12/1834 - Tomintoul * 8 year gap from Duncan

All born to a Alexander Shaw + Elspet Gordon, Tomintoul, but; I could find no others via Scotlands People to these parents . . .

The births are erratic to say the least, there is either other missing children, or having the later birth of Elspet after a 8 gap was to much for her mother where she then dies, all depends on finding the mother Elspet's death:

Only deaths found: via Scotlands People . . .

ELSPET SHAW - aged 80 - 2/2/1834 - Tomintoul

ELSPET GORDON - aged 26 - 02/02/1835 - Forfar

Strange both should died on the same date but; one year apart, and diffent ages, could the age on the Elspet Shaw 2/2/1834 death cert be a mistake, hard to say as there are many Elspet Shaws in Tomintoul, and for the Forfar, Elspet Gordon, it needs to be checked out as in Scotland it is not unusual to be buried under your maiden name, or even registered back in your birth place by your family under your maiden name, whether it is a year later, or did she even return there to be looked after, after becoming ill on the birth of her daughter also called Elspet, by her family, was Elspet born 4/12/1834 named after her mother because of her death, remembering the birth record unless we have seen the entry of Elspet Shaw 4/12/1834 could be a baptism date and not an actual birth date done later in the year, though this would be unusual by her own Catholic family, the sooner the better, and did you not say Elspet was a Catholic, and Alexander wasn't, this may in itself have caused some divide between Elspet's family whether Alexander changed his religion or not to marry Elspet, then there is, was Elspet named after her mother, or her maternal mother in finding thee Elspet Gordon married to Alexander Shaw, no marriage found, in birth . . .

Distance between Tomintoul and Forfar by car by todays roads is about 77 miles . . . 
   
I don't have it to hand at the moment, but; I did make a list of Shaws at Stronevach/Stonaviach and are these places actually the same, as there was house on the roadside just in front of Glenmullie that I have no idea what it is called, but; I do know there was a family of Shaws in it at one time, and it can still be seen today via Google maps, and Stronaviach that is set back from the road just further down the road from Glenmullie coming away from Tomintoul itself hidden by trees, not sure if this was a distillary at one time, this is also still going today as a guest house, anyway I had made a list up of this Shaw, he had children made up of male and females and that some of the males died without issue, I can remember a James, Alexander and a William, and a possible John, and was there a Duncan or a Donald, can't be sure without finding the list, I have no idea on the females, I say Shaw as I cannot be 100% if the father was a John or an Alexander Shaw . . .

The question here is, is the Rev. Father John Shaw and John Shaw of Stonaviach/Stronevach the same person as the late of Rev. Father John Shaw who was born also in 1820 and died on 3/11/1885, as on his death it is claimeded he was born in Perth and Kinross, Kirkmichael, given Kirkmichael covered a wide area, so do we really have the same man here, I do have a birth of a John Shaw whose father was Alexander Shaw in 1819 born Perth . . .
   
JOHN SHAW to ALEXANDER SHAW/CHRISTIAN KENNEDY - BLAIR ATHOLL - PERTH - KIRKMICHAEL
BORN - 16/03/1819

So here's a photo and does he resemble your Rev. John Shaw in your oil painting, one thing for sure he ain't one of ours Shaws, though our Shaws do have those lovely long thin eyebrows that look like a bird in flight, everything else though just does not fit . . . 

Which just goes to show how misinformed infomation has folk going down some strange roads, in the 1861 census John Shaw is born Tomintoul, Kirkmichael, in the 1881 census he is then born in Kirkmichael G, Banffs by the time he dies he is born in Kirkmichael, Perth and Kinross . . .

In regard of the Alexander Shaw at Glenmullie I can find no marriage of Alexander Shaw to an Elspet Gordon, but; saying that if Alexander Shaw was in the Navy as you say, he could have just about got married anywhere, and I have not covered that, just Scotland . . .

But; I do have a John Shaw marriage to an Elspet Gordon in 1817, Tomintoul as follows:

JOHN SHAW to ELSPET GORDON - 7/4/1817 - TOMINTOUL

More info needed from your side, please . . .

Indiana . . .

[Forfarian]

I have found 4 births as follows:
John Shaw B: 10/4/1820 - Tomintoul
Alexander Shaw B: 1/11/1824 - Tomintoul *4 year gap from John
Duncan Shaw B: 15/8/1826 - Tomintoul * 2 year gap from Alexander
Elspet Shaw B: 4/12/1834 - Tomintoul * 8 year gap from Duncan

All born to a Alexander Shaw + Elspet Gordon, Tomintoul, but; I could find no others via Scotlands People to these parents . . .

Only deaths found: via Scotlands People . . .

ELSPET SHAW - aged 80 - 2/2/1834 - Tomintoul
ELSPET GORDON - aged 26 - 02/02/1835 - Forfar

A little very simple arithmetic and elementary logic will show you that neither of these can be the Elspet Gordon you are looking for.

If the older one died at age 80 on 2 February 1834, it is absolutely impossible for her to be the mother of a child born in 1834, or indeed of a child born 14 years earlier, in 1820, when she would have been 64 years old. Quite apart from the fact that Elspet Shaw, daughter of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon, was not born until 10 months after her death.

As for the younger one, if she died aged 26 on 2 February 1835, she must have been born between 3 February 1808 and 2 February 1809, so she would have been at most 11 years old when John Shaw was conceived in the summer of 1819.

BTW you have missed some of the children of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon: there are actually seven of them, all listed in the RC registers at Scotland's People.
Donald, baptised 2 June 1818
John, 10 April 1820
Jane, 9 April 1822
Alexander, 3 October 1824
Duncan, 21 August 1826
Unnamed, baptised 6 July 1828
Elspet, born and baptised 4 December 1834.

It would also not surprise me if there is a mistake in the registers and the two baptisms
Unnamed, 3 May 1830
James, 28 October 1832
were born to Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon, not John Shaw and Elspet Gordon. If I were you I would look at those two baptisms as well as at the seven others. The references to them in LIBINDX give their place of birth as Stronevaich. The marriage in 1817 might also be the same couple with the groom's name incorrectly recorded. Have you viewed all the original records of these events?

And of course the Elspet Gordon who died in Forfar in 1835 would only have been at most 9 years old when Donald Shaw was conceived in the summer of 1817.

The question here is, is the Rev. Father John Shaw and John Shaw of Stonaviach/Stronevach the same person as the late of Rev. Father John Shaw who was born also in 1820 and died on 3/11/1885, as on his death it is claimeded he was born in Perth and Kinross, Kirkmichael, given Kirkmichael covered a wide area, so do we really have the same man here

Scottish death certificates do not tell you where the deceased was born. Where did this claim come from?

Kirkmichael does not 'cover a wide area'. There are four entirely separate parishes named Kirkmichael in Scotland. One is in Banffshire, around Tomintoul, and another is in Perthshire. Are you sure that this claim did not result from someone knowing that he came from Kirkmichael who had heard of the parish of that name in Perthshire but not of the one in Banffshire, so just assumed that it was the Perthshire one?

As he died in Scotland there is no need to flap around asking questions when you can easily settle the matter by looking at his death certificate, then you will see at once if he was the son of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon.

There is in fact an obituary in the Lanarkshire Upper Ward Examiner of 7 November 1885 which states specifically that he was born in Tomintoul, Banffshire, in the year 1820, and the 1881 census says he was born in the parish of Kirkmichael, Banffshire.

[Indiana.59]

John Shaw B: 10/4/1820 - Tomintoul
Alexander Shaw B: 1/11/1824 - Tomintoul *4 year gap from John
Duncan Shaw B: 15/8/1826 - Tomintoul * 2 year gap from Alexander
Elspet Shaw B: 4/12/1834 - Tomintoul * 8 year gap from Duncan

All born to a Alexander Shaw + Elspet Gordon, Tomintoul, but; I could find no others via Scotlands People to these parents . . .

Only deaths found: via Scotlands People . . .

ELSPET SHAW - aged 80 - 2/2/1834 - Tomintoul
ELSPET GORDON - aged 26 - 02/02/1835 - Forfar

A little very simple arithmetic will show you that neither of these can be the Elspet Gordon you are looking for.

If the older one died at age 80 on 2 February 1834, it is absolutely impossible for her to be the mother of a child born in 1834, or indeed of a child born 14 years earleir, in 1820, when she would have been 64 years old. Quite apart from the fact that Elspet Shaw, daughter of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon, was not born until 10 months after her death.

As for the younger one, if she died aged 26 on 2 February 1835, she must have been born between 3 February 1808 and 2 February 1809, so she would have been at most 11 years old when John Shaw was conceived in the summer of 1819.

BTW you have missed some of the children of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon: there are actually seven of them
Donald, baptised 2 June 1818
John, 10 April 1820
Jane, 9 April 1822
Alexander, 3 October 1824
Duncan, 21 August 1826
Unnamed, baptised 6 July 1828
Elspet, born and baptised 4 December 1834.

It would also not surprise me if there is a mistake in the registers and the two baptisms
Unnamed, 3 May 1830
James, 28 October 1832
were born to Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon, not John Shaw and Elspet Gordon.

Right, well, this is looking like the family I made notes on, and it also fill the gaps in birth years, we need to get the death cert for Elspet Shaw aged 80, could it be a clerical error, and it the same date as Elspet Gordon death in 1835, in the Forfar registery, if the 80 was a 50 say instead making her born approx 1784/5, thus keeping Elspet in line with Alexander Shaw's approx birth year of 1785 as in the 1851 census, and that would make Elspet 23/24 at the time of Donald's birth in 1818, and about 49 at the time of death, would that add up . . . 

[Forfarian]

Right, well, this is looking like the family I made notes on, and it also fill the gaps in birth years, we need to get the death cert for Elspet Shaw aged 80, could it be a mistake, aged 50 say making her born approx 1784/5 keeping in line with Alexander's approx birth year of the same 1885 as in the 1851, and that would make Elspet 24 at the time of Donald's birth in 1818, that would add up . . .

There is no death certificate as it is before the start of civil registration in 1855.

But it really does not matter whether this Elspet Shaw was 80, or 50, or 20, or any other age, because as you said she died on 2 February 1834, which, as I have already pointed out, is ten months before the birth of Elspet Shaw, daughter of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon, on 4 December 1834. Or to put it another way, she was dead before Elspet Shaw was even conceived.

[Indiana.59]

Right, well, this is looking like the family I made notes on, and it also fill the gaps in birth years, we need to get the death cert for Elspet Shaw aged 80, could it be a mistake, aged 50 say making her born approx 1784/5 keeping in line with Alexander's approx birth year of the same 1885 as in the 1851, and that would make Elspet 24 at the time of Donald's birth in 1818, that would add up . . .

There is no death certificate as it is before the start of civil registration in 1855.

But it really does not matter whether this Elspet Shaw was 80, or 50, or 20, or any other age, because as you said she died on 2 February 1834, which, as I have already pointed out, is ten months before the birth of Elspet Shaw, daughter of Alexander Shaw and Elspet Gordon, on 4 December 1834. Or to put it another way, she was dead before Elspet Shaw was even conceived.

Now, now, Forfarian, so you have seen the birth and baptism record together on the same day yourself have you, as I have not, if it as in birth, not baptism, and if in anyway the 80 is wrong, that's all I am saying here, check it all out first and cert the facts . . .   

So after packing all my stuff away including all my work on the Shaws, I decided to jump across and do the Mary Laing who married my great Grandfather William Shaw baptized1839, Delachule, in Tomintoul for a nice change as I was sick of the Shaws, William Shaw married Mary Laing in Candy Craig, Glenmuick, in 1875, then went on to have children in Banchory - Ternan except one child that was born in Skene, when later I can across a death entry for a James Shaw in the Tomintoul registry, it read, James Shaw, died Skene, of the family of Delachule, no age given, well, it was not my James Shaw as my great grandfather x 1 was going great guns until the 1970's, so did my grandfather William Shaw have another James Shaw that prior to my own 1st great Grandfather James Shaw that died, no idea, so I did a check on the death, don't hold this to me, but; if I remember there was a James Shaw, but; he was 50, not a child, died Skene, the main thing here it does not matter where you died, you still get registered back at your own home place, as a cross reference, which it seems for this James Shaw was Delachule, yet I cannot find a James Shaw for that time and age at Delachule, cross registry is a complicated game, it can be done years later, and mistakes can be made when these hand writtern entries then get put into type later on, also it is known in Scotland that if a wife dies, and the wodower husband re-marrys quickly to have the help to bring the children up while he goes out to work to keep the family, that the 1st born daughter of the new wife is given the name and surname of the deceased 1st wife, if Elspet Shaw was born 4/12/1834 and was in effect that child to be born after the mother Elspet Shaw/Gordon died in 2/2/1834, and her age was 49/50, not 80, then the timing of this Elspet Shaw born 4/12/1834 could actually be quite correct, this death entry needs to be seen if only to eliminate it, just saying . . .

And, a Merry Crimbo, to you Forfarian, and may next year be better than this last about to pass . . . 

[Forfarian]

Now, now, Forfarian, so you have seen the birth and baptism record together on the same day yourself have you, as I have not, if it as in birth, not baptism, and if in anyway the 80 is wrong, so could the 1834 also be wrong, and could it be in fact be 1835, that's all I am saying here, check it all out first and cert the facts . . .   

I am going by the index on SP, which gives the same date for the birth and the baptism - not unusual in the RC records. Also LIBINDX, which indexed the Tomintoul RC registers long before they were put on SP, and which also says that Elspet Shaw was born on 4 December 1834.

It's your family, not mine. It's up to you to check things out, not me. If you think the indexes are wrong, view and download the originals and post extracts here so we can all see them and you can prove that the indexes are (and I am) wrong. 

We have a saying in Scotland: facts are chiels that winna ding. If Elspet Shaw Sr died on 2 February 1834 as you and SP say, and Elspet Shaw Jr was born on 4 December 1834, as both SP and LIBINDX say, then, barring miracles of a truly biblical kind, it is absolutely impossible for Elspet Shaw Sr to be the mother of Elspet Shaw Jr.

But it's your tree, and if you want to assume that the records are wrong it's up to you. It will have no effect on me.

[Indiana.59]

Now, now, Forfarian, so you have seen the birth and baptism record together on the same day yourself have you, as I have not, if it as in birth, not baptism, and if in anyway the 80 is wrong, that's all I am saying here, check it all out first and cert the facts . . . 

I am going by the index on SP, which gives the same date for the birth and the baptism - not unusual in the RC records. Also LIBINDX, which indexed the Tomintoul RC registers long before they were put on SP, and which also says that Elspet Shaw was born on 4 December 1834.

It's your family, not mine. It's up to you to check things out, not me. If you think the indexes are wrong, view and download the originals and post extracts here so we can all see them and you can prove that the indexes are (and I am) wrong. 

We have a saying in Scotland: facts are chiels that winna ding. If Elspet Shaw Sr died on 2 February 1834 as you and SP say, and Elspet Shaw Jr was born on 4 December 1834, as both SP and LIBINDX say, then, barring miracles of a truly biblical kind, it is absolutely impossible for Elspet Shaw Sr to be the mother of Elspet Shaw Jr.

But it's your tree, and if you want to assume that the records are wrong it's up to you. It will have no effect on me.

I do my best, Forfarian to place all my facts followed by certs on here, and also happy to share for others to cross reference, This is not my cause, I am just trying to help out xscot1312 in his trail, there are too many Alexander Shaw's in the mix here, all living next door to each other, which one of us are related, actually we all are, he wants help in regard of Duncan Shaw, born to Alexander Shaw and Elspet Shaw in 1826, well there cannot be 2 can there, one living in Glenmullie, the other in Stronaviach at the same time, one thing xscot1312 has not given me that he has himself is the birth date of his Duncan Shaw, I have put up the details I have, and what I recall of this Shaw family there were sons that died without issue, was Duncan one of them, like I said I have researched it, but; I cannot get my hands on the files just now as they are packed away until after I have made my move after the New Year, what I am finding now is via Scotland People already in my searched items and images, you are like some over sized bully, Forfarian, always turning up and trying to push me off this site, because if anyone makes me want to give it all up, it is you . . . 

Even though this lot of Shaws are not my direct line of Shaws I am quite happy to put this death entry of this Elspet Gordon/Shaw on my list of getting on behalf of xscot1312, if needs be, and if only to eliminate this Elspet Gordon/Shaw if needs be, that's the way it all works, Forfarian . . .

I'm off for a nice cup of tea . . .

Indiana fed up Shaw . . . 

[Forfarian]

You may rest assured that I will never attempt to help you again.