Author Topic: McTIMLEY, McTIMONEY, help with Irish/Antrim records, please  (Read 2030 times)

guest259648

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 20 February 21 06:52 GMT (UK) »
aghadowey
Thank you for replying. Lovely to see these old records! [I can read all scripts, however these are difficult to view in detail on my computer because I can't adjust the focus or get close enough.]

Anyway, I've checked my great-aunt's notes and they suggest that John McAtamney (son of James) was an "Orange Man". And that's Protestant, I think? Are there any useful Protestant records for Belfast from the first part of the 19th century?

Ballymoney: alas I don't yet know which; all I have is the name.
D :-)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 20 February 21 10:21 GMT (UK) »
No such thing as 'Protestant' church records- you need to search by denomination (Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc.). Looking at the list of possible churches in Belfast area alone shows how many possible churches-
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records

There are McAtamneys in Ballymoney/Kilrea area but almost all, if not all, Catholic.

Quote
James McTamney who was old enough to have had a son John McTamney in circa 1835 in Belfast. At one stage in his life James worked as a butcher.
Where did you get information that son John was born c1835 Belfast? did John marry? die in Ireland or elsewhere? have you found James in any census records?
At what stage did James work as a butcher? any other occupation? It wasn't uncommon for farmers to also be listed as butchers but in Belfast could have had a shop.

Unfortunately, at this stage, with little detail, even if you do find a John McTamney born c1835 Belfast with father James you cant bee 100 % sure you've found the right person.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

guest259648

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 20 February 21 12:28 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for correcting me - please carry on! You're the expert here.

I began this difficult search years ago... I think I posted a request on here in about 2016, but nothing came of it at the time. Since then I've tried to collect more family stories and recollections to try to improve the chances of success. And hopefully there are more records online now.

I have a reasonably full picture of the later years of John (son of James) who can be found working in England from 1861 onwards, till his death 40 years later (he died in England). John told people that he was born in 'Belfast' in approx. 1834/5, and he came to live permanently in England. (It's possible he came to England by himself; there's no suggestion from the censuses of any Irish blood relatives or people of the same surname [except his wife & children] ever residing or staying with him.) The quest is to find out exactly who John's father was, so we can look backwards, but all we have of use is a name on John's marriage certificate from 1874, i.e. James, with the designation 'butcher'. It does not say 'deceased', so there is a chance James was still alive in 1874.

John christened his first child Eliza. There's no Eliza easily visible in John's wife's family, so could Eliza be John's mother's name, we wonder.

I'm happy to conduct a very extensive search through every possible church, it doesn't matter if there are thousands! - this is a long-standing family mystery we really want to solve.

So, a 'butcher' could have been a farmer, with a shop in Belfast, you say? I like that idea.
If most Mc(A)Tamneys in the area are Catholic, is it likely that one would be so different e.g. Presbyterian? - would one 'break away' from the usual pattern? Or was that too unusual? The "Orange Man" connection could well be an invention of my great aunt's, so I treat it with great caution.

Should I be looking at the Catholic records first, since they could contain what I want?
If so, do you know a way of bringing them into better focus on my screen?

D :-)

guest259648

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 20 February 21 14:16 GMT (UK) »
PS
Here's further info, to narrow it down: I believe the 'Ballymoney' [Baile Muine?] is almost definitely "Ballymoney Townland" which I'm told is in Belfast Upper, part of Shankill.

Does that help us home in on a likely church, for a baptism in the 1830s?

I'm also now wondering if John (son of James) rejected Catholicism, and this is why John came to England; he was possibly rejected/chased away by his Belfast family?





Offline aghadowey

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 20 February 21 22:24 GMT (UK) »
No need to start a new topic- you can just continue the original one to keep all the information in one place.
Threads merged.

Quote
So, a 'butcher' could have been a farmer, with a shop in Belfast, you say? I like that idea.
A farmer could also have done butchering on a large scale but it is unlikely a farmer would have had a shop in Belfast.

Quote
I'm happy to conduct a very extensive search through every possible church, it doesn't matter if there are thousands! - this is a long-standing family mystery we really want to solve.
Not all church records from that period survive and of those that do not all are online. PRONI has microfilmed copies of many, not all, records but they are closed at the moment due to Covid-19.

Another point is that James saying he was born in 'Belfast' doesn't mean that he was born in the city. Being in England he might just have given the name of the city rather than a more rural place somewhere outside the city limits. When my greatgrandmother's uncle died in 1890 overseas his obituary stated he was born in Belfast but the family actually lived 50 miles away.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 21 February 21 01:51 GMT (UK) »


.. John's marriage certificate from 1874, i.e. James, with the designation 'butcher'. It does not say 'deceased"

You have a marriage certificate, 1874.

Can you please list all the information on this certificate.

guest259648

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 21 February 21 07:29 GMT (UK) »
wivenhoe
Thank you for your interest.

MARRIAGE CERT:
Birmingham St Philip's [Church of England] April 8th 1874
John McTimley  aged 40  Bachelor  Shoe Maker Hill Street (B'ham) Father James McTimley  Butcher
Isabella Carlow* aged 30 Spinster [no occ.]  Hill Street (B'ham) Father Michael Carlow Shoe Maker
     John signed with an X. Isabella wrote her name.
Witnesses (hard to read): James "Ma[hone]y"??? and Joseph H[...]Gell???? (my guesses). (Can you assist? The certificate is on Ancestry.)

The family confirms that the L in 'Timley' as seen here is a vicar's error (mishearing). Nowhere else is an L included in the name, wherever it is written. Always MN or MON.

I have researched the CARLOW* family with ease (from Newport Shrops/Shifnal), but it gives no clues to John's ancestry.

Rootschat adviser aghadowey suggested several years ago that the earlier Irish surname could be McTAMNEY (rather than 'TIM') and family members agree this could very well be so. But there are a few McTIMNEYS on the 19th century censuses, so the version containing 'I' needs to be kept in mind.


guest259648

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Re: Look-up assistance for McTamney McAtamney Belfast c.1790 - 1840
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 21 February 21 07:44 GMT (UK) »
aghadowey, thank you.
I've asked for this topic to be moved to where you recommend :-) (I think it's been done.)

You say: "A farmer could also have done butchering on a large scale but it is unlikely a farmer would have had a shop in Belfast."
Well a farmer/butcher could have had a shop anywhere, couldn't he, even in a tiny village; I've seen them in Ireland in the middle of nowhere.

The Belfast area called Ballymoney (assuming this is accurate) is still right on the very (western) edge of Belfast city and rural... in the early 19th century it would have been very green indeed.

I agree with your point that 'Belfast' doesn't mean John was actually born in the city. Thank you for sharing your story about your greatgrandmother's uncle, it's a useful indicator of how people describe things - especially to people who aren't familiar with the area (or country) they're talking about. 'Belfast' might just have been the nearest big place, somewhere an English person might have heard of.

How could we find out what farms existed on the western edge of Belfast in the early 19th century? The history books suggest that farming in that general area moved over to cattle etc to avoid problems with diseased crops, so e.g. a pig/beef farm is a definite possibility for James McTIM-/TAMNEY.

D




Offline aghadowey

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Re: McTIMLEY, McTIMONEY, help with Irish/Antrim records, please
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 21 February 21 09:27 GMT (UK) »
Quote
You say: "A farmer could also have done butchering on a large scale but it is unlikely a farmer would have had a shop in Belfast."
Well a farmer/butcher could have had a shop anywhere, couldn't he, even in a tiny village; I've seen them in Ireland in the middle of nowhere.

There's a huge difference between a small shop in an Irish village in the 1900s, or even late 1800s, and a shop in Belfast. A butcher could also be farming on some scale and butchering animals for himself and neighbours OR could have been a butcher in Belfast working either in his own shop or working for someone with a shop. The fact that James 'McTamney' wasn't found in directories might mean he was working in someone else's shop in Belfast.

Have you tried using DNA to find matches with other possible relatives from this part of the family?

I'm curious about the possible 'Ballymoney' connection- where does this information come from?

If James was farming at Ballymoney near Belfast he should nearly be listed in Griffith's Vauation (printed 1861) and at least the first Revision book- unless he was dead or moved away before 1861. There are two Ballymoneys near Belfast city- I can't see anything even close to McTamney in either-
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
Ballymoney   Antrim   Belfast, upper   Shankill   Ballymoney   
and
Ballymoney   Antrim   Belfast, lower   Island magee   Ballymoney   

Quote
The history books suggest that farming in that general area moved over to cattle etc to avoid problems with diseased crops, so e.g. a pig/beef farm is a definite possibility for James McTIM-/TAMNEY.
Farming would have been on a small scale and very diversified in the 1800s, with most farmers being tenants rather than owning their land.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!