Author Topic: How / Where if possible can I access records of FOREIGN origin prior 1841 census  (Read 1529 times)

Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Hi all,
  Wondering if anyone could help me with info on how to start looking for a relation who has been recorded on the 1841 census, his name firstly on the 1841 has been mistranscribed to WINSILL from WENTZELL,aged about 60, which takes his birth back to about 1760 ??.
 Also being entered down as of FOREIGN origin. GOTTLEIB WENTZELL, is well mentioned / found in the family since 1840.
 GOTTLEIB (Winsill) WENTZELL does change his name to JOHN WENTZELL.
 When you find that you have foreign ancestors, firstly how does one find what country he has come from?
Secondly, Are we able to find how he arrived over here - obviously by boat or ship and would there be any record anywhere? The southern ports like Dover, Southampton seem to be obvious places where to start first.
 Are / would there be any records in those areas or would it be best to start researching from London?
 The fact he has been entered as of FOREIGN origin on the 1841 census, would this mean he has arrived only in the previous 10 yrs, after 1831 census so to speak, or how long would it be before he could be entered on records without stating he was of FOREIGN origin.
   A rumour passed down has been that Grandfathers side(my mother's) of the family was FRENCH, but could it be that someone further back had seen the 1841 census column with the F letter and automatically assumed that it meant FRANCE.??

Many thanks to everyone who takes the time read,


Best REGARDS  Just  J



     
Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH
Roberts GLAMORGAN,WALES

Offline PaulineJ

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 05 January 18 08:48 GMT (UK) »
You start by stating known facts.
Eg the 1841 census in full (your own transcription)
Then the 1851 .

So you haven't told us of any location, nor occupation.
Nor which site has  mistranscribed "your" family.

If you don't relate a census entry in full, you've added another layer of mud to the water.

To illustrate this, refer back to the other replies to previous posts.
You family are NOT WINSILL, they are WENSILL
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784930.msg6399474#msg6399474

All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
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Offline Brickwall Demolisher

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 05 January 18 09:13 GMT (UK) »
Hi Pauline,
      Thanks for your quick response. On the 1841 Census only him and son James John b 1816 (was christened John James) Stepney,with his son James Thomas b1839. Hackney. Occupation Watchman. I believe compare as law enforcer ??   JOHN dies 1844. I have 1851,1861 Censuses. James dies 1863 Croyden,Surrey






 
Regards. Just J


Maycock LAMBETH 1700-1960's
Burcham NORFOLK ??/LAMBETH 1700 - 1960's
Wentzell CRIPPLEGATE/SOUTHWARK 1700-1960's
Sadler CAMBERWELL / LEWISHAM 1700 - 1960's
Elliott WALWORTH / 1700 -1960's
Lepine FRANCE/KENT/WALWORTH/1550's-1950's
Barnes DORSET / WALWORTH
Roberts GLAMORGAN,WALES

Offline PaulineJ

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 05 January 18 09:20 GMT (UK) »
Even that is difficult to interpret.
Transcribe, do not describe is the way to progress.
You've also omitted Hanah (wife?)  of John/gottleib in your description

1841 is here? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVM-YLG
All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
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Offline garstonite

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oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 05 January 18 09:25 GMT (UK) »
Please remember that, on the 1841 census only, adult ages were usually rounded down to a multiple of 5 years. And that censuses always give an age and NOT a year of birth ;D

Presumably then, James John was shown as age 25 and James Thomas was shown as age 2?
So, James John could actually have been between 25 and 29 years old.

Also the right-hand columns of that census ask where born - so however long he had been in the UK, he would always put "F" for Foreign in that column.

No records have ever been kept of travelers from Europe.
The Passenger Lists dating from 1890 do include some, but they were traveling on ships that were on longer voyages.

Did he ever become a British Subject?
See: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/naturalisation-british-citizenship/
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline ..claire..

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 05 January 18 09:27 GMT (UK) »
Hi

He was possibly here sometime before 1811, in London there is this

Gottleip Wentzyll married Hannah Berry 22 June 1811 at Chelsea

Claire

EDIT: marriage witnessed by Sarah Sullivan and Thomas Goodyer.

Gottleib signed the register himself and signed as

Gottleip Wintzel
Luce, Tippett , Thomson, Dolling ~ Devon & Cornwall
Mocquard ~ London, France
Census info is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline garstonite

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 05 January 18 09:30 GMT (UK) »
Gottleib Wentzell has a daughter Hannah in Stepney,London and a son Andrew Gottlieb Wentzell before 1825 also - try finding them on Familysearch
good luck
 :)
ADDED - Claires find matches my post - looks like they named their first 2 children after their parents Hannah and (Andrew) Gottlieb - points towards Hannah father being named Andrew ??
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline ..claire..

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Re: Help if you can please. How do we start researching into our foreign Ancestors.?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 05 January 18 09:41 GMT (UK) »
Hi

On the baptism of his son John James Gottleibs occupation is a Mariner.

Claire
Luce, Tippett , Thomson, Dolling ~ Devon & Cornwall
Mocquard ~ London, France
Census info is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk