Landells and Netzler - Queensland

[westernwombat]

I am researching William James LANDELLS b. 1866 in Eltham, Victoria who died in Red Hill, Qld in 1954. His parents were William George LANDELLS (1840-1871), Geelong - and Isabella Jane BAILLIE (1843-1880).

William James LANDELLS appears to have lived and married in Samoa.
I have posted elsewhere on RootsChat what I know about the Samoan connection.
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=785887

According to some sources, he married 3 times and 2 of the women were NETZLER, and there are children with at surname that died in Queensland, and there are Queensland connections with another wife, Marguerite Violet LOGAN who had married Edward William ROBERTSON, and there are some ROBERTSON children who died in Qld.

There are few Landells and Netzler in the Qld BDM but I would appreciate any clarification of the Landells-Netzler / Samoan connection, which seems to tie in to Qld. A son, Oscar Frederic William LANDELLS (1904-1985) and a daughter Isabella Martha LANDELLS (1906-1954) were both born in Apia, Samoa and died in Queensland, according to my information.
 
 

[majm]

As suggested on your linked thread,  may I support consideration for you to download the Qld BDM death registration for your chap.  It may well have the details of his marriage/s and children.

JM

[westernwombat]

The death certificate for WJ Landells (Qld) is rather terse.
I summarize:

He died 17 Dec 1954 in Queensland, aged 87.
It is recorded that he had lived in Melbourne; 30 years in Queensland.

The informant is his stepson, EW Robertson. He had 3 wives, all married in Apia, Samoa; #1 Phobie Netzler #2 Etta Netzler #3 Marguerite Robertson formerly Logan.
His age, at marriage date - 32, 37, 45 years respectively
Surviving children:    By #1: 0     By #2: William James, age 50    By #3: Faith, age 42
Deceased children:    1 female, whose mother = #2.

I obtained this a week or so ago. This is in the main consistent with my information prior to obtaining the certificate.

The information that is hard to rationalize is the William James, aged 50.
Birth date was therefore 1904 (this is a 1954 death cert).
Coincidentally? This is the age of the stepson (who is the informant), and in a tree (w/o evidence) that I have seen, a William James Landells, b 1904 is listed.

I cannot imagine that his stepson EW Robertson, who published a statement in a local Samoa newspaper in 1923, to announce that he was changing his surname back from Landells to Robertson, would have been known as William James Landells (when his relinquished name was Edward William Landells) -

Samoanische Zeitung, Volume 23, Issue 45, 9 November 1923
"Public Notice. It is my desire to be known henceforth by my original name of Robertson,  and I hereby notify that instead ot Edward William Landells I shall be henceforth Edward William Robertson. Apia, 7th Nov., 1923. "   

I haven't located a 'candidate' for this other son, William James Landells b. 1904.

At that time, I believe that he (EW Robertson, informant), his mother, and step father WJ Landells were all in Samoa and WJ Landells was carrying on his horse-shoeing etc business (there are weekly advertisements in the local newspapers, over many years).

A newspaper report suggests to me that Landells' house and business was intentionally set afire (but not burned down) and this may have encouraged his departure. There are newspaper adv. over prior years when he is attempting to sell his property/properties  in Samoa.
 
I have not discovered when any of the family departed Samoa - but Samoa had gone through turbulant times in all the period of residence of WJ Landells (1896 -?), and none of those events had encouraged them to depart.
I believe step[son EW Robertson married in Samoa, and that he and his wife later lived in Qld and died there.
 
Perhaps some of the experienced others may like to offer an interpretation of some of this?

[Westward]

I see that much of the information has been posted on previous threads. A summary of the Qld data
is

Qld BDM Records
Marriage 1928 C103 Henry Victor Weber married Isabella Martha Landells
Death 1954 C1395 Isabel Martha Weber Parents William James Landelle Hertha Netzler
Death 1984 57814 Oscar Landells Parents William Landells Phoebe Agnes Netzler

The funeral notice provides the daughters' married names.
Courier Mail 20 Dec 1954 p 14
Landells, Mr. William James, Glenrosa Road, Red Hill.— Relatives and Friends of Pastor and Mrs. Don Whittaker, Mr. W. Landells, Mr. H. V. Weber, Mr. and Mrs. W. P. Miller are respectfully informed of the death of their beloved Father, Father-in-law, and Grandfather. The Funeral is appointed to leave the Parlour, 400 Wickham Street, To-day (Monday), for Mt. Thompson Crematorium, after Service commencing 11.45 a.m. METROPOLITAN FUNERALS

Oscar certainly seems to be the Mr W Landells from the funeral notice - perhaps he was known as William.

Isabella's death index gives her mother as Hertha Netzler,- which could be a transcription error but closer to Henrietta/Etta than Phoebe Agnes.

My best guess would be Oscar was known as William, child of Phoebe
Isabella daughter of Henrietta/Etta - although her marriage certificate might confirm or not.
Both children must have been quite young when their parents died, so they may be using information supplied by their father or step mother.
Faith daughter of Marguerite.

It is an interesting puzzle but unless the marriage records from Samoa exist and can be found - the parent of Oscar & Isabella could be either of the first 2 wives.

[westernwombat]

I can see now that I had a clumsy mistake, in having in my mind that Edward William Robertson was born in 1904 (my records show his birth 11 Jan 1898; Victorian Reg 1898/6076, born in RICHMOND).
It was Oscar Frederic William that was born in 1904 - and I have his birth or baptism as 22 Aug 1904, in Apia, Samoa. I have his mother as Etta (Samoan? record as "..herthe Netzler" , same for his sister Isabella, b. 3 Jul 1906.

I am using information from the Family Search Record Collection, "Samoa Baptisms, 1863-1940" which gives their mother as ..herthe Netzler -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-Q84

How much credence should I place on those record collections?

 

[Westward]

Ah - I should have looked at Family search - the baptisms are  transcriptions of church records - so much more reliable than user trees you find online. Herthe seems to be the mother's name rather than Henrietta - presumably known as Etta. The informant on Oscar's death appears to have his mother's name incorrect.

It would seem that E W Robinson has everyone in the family correct - other than the fact that the son known as William as on the death certificate (& in the funeral notice)  was baptised Oscar Frederick William.

The death certificate seems to have confirmed what you already knew - nice to have them match up   

[majm]

I can see now that I had a clumsy mistake, in having in my mind that Edward William Robertson was born in 1904 (my records show his birth 11 Jan 1898; Victorian Reg 1898/6076, born in RICHMOND).
It was Oscar Frederic William that was born in 1904 - and I have his birth or baptism as 22 Aug 1904, in Apia, Samoa. I have his mother as Etta (Samoan? record as "..herthe Netzler" , same for his sister Isabella, b. 3 Jul 1906.

I am using information from the Family Search Record Collection, "Samoa Baptisms, 1863-1940" which gives their mother as ..herthe Netzler -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-Q84

How much credence should I place on those record collections?

Hi there,

On your other thread you will notice that I had posted (17 Jan 2018) the live links to the baptisms info and noted that this was not based on a submitted tree.   Here is that post:

from my armchair online searchings through free to search websites.

Samoan Baptisms for two with parents as William LANDELLS and …herthe NETZLER.

Isabella Martha LANDELLS, 3 July 1905, Apia, Upolu, Samoa
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-Q84 (not from a submitted tree)

Oscar Frederic William LANDELLS August 1904
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-WB5 (not from a submitted tree.

Death of
Agnes Phoebe LANDELLS  buried 15 July1901.  (born 7 December 1879).
Burial in the European Cemetery, Apia, Tuamasaga, Samoa.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKS-W913
and photo of the grave
https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/16877219

JM

Clearly Oscar William and Isabella Martha are full siblings...    I don't see any info on that dc that is terse ... rather I see fairly standard responses to the questions the funeral director was required to ask of the person organising the funeral.  The Funeral Director was likely the person responsible for the lodgement of the paperwork.  The info is given to the funeral director when making the practical arrangements for the funeral service, so on top of the informant making all those arrangements, comforting other grieving family members, contacting the deceased's extended family and friends/neighbours the informant needs to remember all the family history that the FD requires...    It is certainly not at all unusual for people to be known by their middle given name, so I see no confusing issues between Oscar and William - this is ONE person.

JM

[westernwombat]

I am very inexperienced at this..
Nice to know that those FS records are reliable. I have taken the "..herthe" as the transcriber's inability to decipher the handwriting - which we could guess as Henrietta hence Etta (familiar name).
My intuition is that a birth record would be more likely to have the parents' names correct, than a death record - so I would be more inclined to accept Etta than Phoebe as mother of Oscar, Isabella.

[majm]

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Samoa_Baptisms_(FamilySearch_Historical_Records) 

JM