Author Topic: CoA coloured?  (Read 12545 times)

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
CoA coloured?
« on: Thursday 01 February 18 19:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi
What would be the best way to get a coat of arms coloured from visitation?
I've tried using drawshield and putting the arms separately but it doesn't quite work.
As far as I have researched, my Mountfort family's last full CoA is listed on the visitation of Warwickshire without colour and I cant find it anywhere else coloured or of the full CoA.
The Anglo/Norman 'Mountford/Mountfort/de Montfort family of Montfort sur Risle' came across during the Conquest and traditionally the arms of the family have been a varying amount of Bendy  Or and Azure. It seems somewhere along the lines it was changed to Argent and Azure Bendy.
Some people sometimes get mixed up and list the French 'de Montfort of Montfort L'Amaury' coat of arms for this family but this is incorrect as this family entered England fully by way of Sir Simon de Montfort 6th Earl of Leicester and appear to be an unrelated family.
Interestingly my Ancestor Sir Peter de Montfort of the House of Montfort sur Risle was slain alongside Sir Simon de Montfort of the House of Montfort L'Amaury at Evesham 1265.
I feel if I do colour it I might not get the colours correct.
I will attach the visitation page.
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes

Offline davidbappleton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 04 February 18 21:26 GMT (UK) »
Here is a colored version of the arms from the image you uploaded, colored in according to the blazon given there.

I hope that this is helpful.

David

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 05 February 18 09:28 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much for this David, Nice to see if finally in colour.
My 10th grt grandmother was Susanna Mountfort, Daughter of William Mountfort Esq who was the younger son of William Mountfort Esq Lord of Bescot.
Susanna married George Clarkson in the 1630s and since then the Mountford name has been passed down as a First name and as Middle name, My 8th grt grandfather was Mountfort Clarkson and I currently have it as my middle name.
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,496
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 05 February 18 21:51 GMT (UK) »
Here's a go from me I did yesterday - pracitising with a new piece of software I've just got! Not sure you'd want it, but thought I'd post it anyway.
Not awfully clear from the visitation if the fleur de lis on the 3rd quarter are black (sable), along with the crosslets fitchee. It also doesn't give a colour for the fess on the 4th quarter.
You don't have any other image do you? Sometimes even a black and white image can have 'hatching' on it from which you can infer the colours.

As far as any exact information, you could contact the College of Arms.
www.college-of-arms.gov.uk
They will do research etc. Very expensive and don't hold your breath! I've been waiting over a months now for a reply to a query I asked.  :(
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline davidbappleton

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 05 February 18 22:20 GMT (UK) »
Not awfully clear from the visitation if the fleur de lis on the 3rd quarter are black (sable), along with the crosslets fitchee. It also doesn't give a colour for the fess on the 4th quarter.

"In blazoning a Coat of Arms in which two or more Charges of the same Tincture immediately follow each other in the Blazon, it is not necessary to mention the tincture until all the Charges of such Tincture have been specified." (John E. Cussans, Handbook of Heraldry, 1882, p. 161)

In this case, yes, both the fleurs-de-lis and the crosses crosslet fitchy in the third quarter are "sable," and the fess in the fourth quarter is the same "argent" as the crosses crosslet by which it is surrounded.

David


Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 05 February 18 23:22 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much for your version aswell, What software are you using?
I have heard about contacting the College of Arms but I know they can be quite expensive.

As far as I know this is only featured on the visitation and I think is the last coat of arms used by the Mountforts of Bescot as the male heir line dies out in 1672 I believe.
Im not sure when this CoA was adopted. I think I'm correct in thinking the other 3 arms which are featured are ancestral families linked to Mountforts?
Off the top of my head The 1st arms Bendy are the Mountfort arms, The amount of Bendy vary and colours change from Or and Azure to Argent and Azure over time. I'm not sure of the 2nd arms. I think the 3rd arms are representing the De Clinton family which the Mountforts descend from twice. I think the 4th arms are representing the Hillary family which is how the Mountforts acquired Bescot through descent.

Im sure to be corrected here but I think I read somewhere that 3 lions were only on a Coat of Arms if the family laid claim to Royal descent? I'm not sure if that is correct though but through the de Clinton family the Mountforts descend from King Henry II and through the Willington family they descend from King John.
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,496
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 06 February 18 01:07 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the clarification of the colours david.

As for the 'escocheon of pretence', as it's written on the visitation - ie the 'sheild' in the middle, this is from wikitionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/escutcheon_of_pretence

Used when the wife was an heiress it seems.

Software is an old version of Photoshop (but new to me) - but then I have a very old computer! :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,496
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 06 February 18 01:37 GMT (UK) »
An updated version with black fleur de lis in the 3rd quarter, and more silvery lions in the escutcheon of pretence.
Gosh this is fun!

Do you know if the tongue of the lion's head Crest would have been red David? It doesn't say 'langued gules' in the description? Perhaps it should be blue really, as no other colour is mentioned apart from the azure?
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Taylor94

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • My grt grt grandfather, after capture WW1
    • View Profile
Re: CoA coloured?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 06 February 18 09:46 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for clearing that up goldie.
I've found that the visitation lists the armourings
1.Mountfort
2.De Clinton of Coleshill (I thought this would be 3 given the crosslets)
3.Bereford
4.Haversham?
'Escutcheon of Pretence, Fowler?'
This is interesting as Ive not come across the Bereford or Haversham families yet prior to 1619 the year visitation was recorded.

Whats also interesting is that whoever supplied the visitation in 1619 started the pedigree at my 12th grt grandfather William Mountford Esq Lord of Aldridge and Bescot B.1555 D.1610 who married Anne Fowler Dau of Brian Fowler of St Thomas, Staff (She isn't given as an Heiress but escutcheon is wrote for Fowler?)

Whoever supplied the pedigree in 1619 didn't list the current lord Mountfort of Bescot or list the Children of William and Ann. My 11th grt grandfather William Mountfort was alive and so was his older brother Sir Edward Mountfort the current lord of Aldridge and Bescot in 1619 I believe. Edward marries an Elizabeth Brown so no sign of Bereford or Haversham unless these names are further back on the Mountfort line but not that I know of. My William marries an unknown Margaret but I doubt his marriage would affect the CoA given as he was the younger son.

So seeing as the pedigree stops at William and Anne, the CoA would have been used by him and the escutcheon seems to have been added when he married Anne Fowler
Richard Dudley of Cosby. Gent
George Bent of Cosby. Gent
William Black of Kilby. Gent
Bernard Cotton of Dadlington. Esq
Sir Thomas Halford of Wistow. Bart
Richard Swynfen of Sutton Cheney. Gent
John Cotes of Aylestone. Gent
John Freeston of East Norton. Gent
Sir John Bernard of Abington.
Edward Shuckburgh of Naseby. Esq
Richard Worsley of Deeping. Esq
Thomas Hobson of Glen. Gent
John Grant of Stretton Parva. Gent
John Miles of Heanley Hall. Gent
Thomas Dabridgecourt. Esq
Sir Clement Edmondes