FINNEY of ellastone

[trish1120]

Have you actually established Jonathan is the Son of William/Ann?

Going this far back in Family Trees has too many variables to be certain of anything.

You quote Jonathan as 1678-1734

I agree there is a 1734 Burial but no age is shown.

There is a JOHN Baptised 30 Sep 1673 to a William/Ann.
If this is Jonathan then he would be 34 when he married 1707.

William/Ann also Bapt;
SARAH 1 Mar 1665/6
ANN 12 Jul 1668
JOHN as noted.
MARGARET 16 Dec 1680
ELIZABETH 24 Sep 1683

And I agree there is a WILLIAM 10 Oct 1636 Father RAPH, no Mother noted on FreeREG

There is a ANNA 19 Oct 1635 Leek to Ralphe/Anne, abode Bradnop
+ ELLEN 18 Jun 1637 Leek, Father Ralph

There are several Ralphs around in that time frame and one married Margery SANT 8 October 1640   Leek.

Sorry in my opinion there is not enough evidence  to go back this far to be conclusive that you have the right line.

I personally have only gone back with line name in my Tree to the early 1600's and that is because I have detailed evidence christenings/marriages/all children born to the couples to establish right time for marriage, wills etc.

All ny other English lines I have been happy to get back to the mid 1750's.

Dont get me started on the Irish ones!

Anyhow I cant add anything else so this is my last entry on this query.

Trish

[robert g shaw]

Have you actually established Jonathan is the Son of William/Ann?

Going this far back in Family Trees has too many variables to be certain of anything.

You quote Jonathan as 1678-1734

I agree there is a 1734 Burial but no age is shown.

There is a JOHN Baptised 30 Sep 1673 to a William/Ann.
If this is Jonathan then he would be 34 when he married 1707.

William/Ann also Bapt;
SARAH 1 Mar 1665/6
ANN 12 Jul 1668
JOHN as noted.
MARGARET 16 Dec 1680
ELIZABETH 24 Sep 1683

And I agree there is a WILLIAM 10 Oct 1636 Father RAPH, no Mother noted on FreeREG

There is a ANNA 19 Oct 1635 Leek to Ralphe/Anne, abode Bradnop
+ ELLEN 18 Jun 1637 Leek, Father Ralph

There are several Ralphs around in that time frame and one married Margery SANT 8 October 1640   Leek.

Sorry in my opinion there is not enough evidence  to go back this far to be conclusive that you have the right line.

I personally have only gone back with line name in my Tree to the early 1600's and that is because I have detailed evidence christenings/marriages/all children born to the couples to establish right time for marriage, wills etc.

All ny other English lines I have been happy to get back to the mid 1750's.

Dont get me started on the Irish ones!

Anyhow I cant add anything else so this is my last entry on this query.

Trish

hi trish

yes, there was certainly a johnathon/jonathon baptised in ellastone in 1678 with a father william. that birth fits the regular pattern with those others mentioned, so im pretty certain this is correct.

the johnathon who married ann heath in 1707 at hanbury/marchington (not far from ellastone) was residing at 'ellison' which is clearly a mis-spelling of ellaston.

yes you are right about william 1636 not having a mother named, the transcript says 'william son of raph and his wife' ..... that strongly suggests to me that raph was married when william was baptised, meaning that she either died and raph remarried an 'ann' in 1640, or that the 1640 marriage was not williams father raph.

but. tbh, im happy with the timeline back to thomas 1528. of course it cannot be proven with certainty, but the dates fit known christenings with parent/s identified.

theres no other info on the 1640 marriage except it was between raph and margery at leek.

bradnop is on the ellastone side of leek..

thanks for your comments anyway

so he was either 16, with no corroborating evidence, or he was 29 with corroborating evidence.

[trish1120]

Gosh I must say I made some mistakes in my last posting!
My excuse is that it was late here in OZ!
I meant I have only 1 Family line (the Nettlems) I have gone back with to the early 1600's and I have lots of evidence on.

I also find it unusual that later Finney lines did not name a Son Ralph.

I would also if I was you look at where Anna 1635/Ellen 1637 married if they survived childhood.
Also where Ralph died.

Its your Family line so its up to you with what you believe to be correct.

Cheers,
Trish

[robert g shaw]

Gosh I must say I made some mistakes in my last posting!
My excuse is that it was late here in OZ!
I meant I have only 1 Family line (the Nettlems) I have gone back with to the early 1600's and I have lots of evidence on.

I also find it unusual that later Finney lines did not name a Son Ralph.

I would also if I was you look at where Anna 1635/Ellen 1637 married if they survived childhood.
Also where Ralph died.

Its your Family line so its up to you with what you believe to be correct.

Cheers,
Trish

im not concerned about the dropping of ralph, as i see it, its fashion as other names are being used like george. its not like there are many/any ralphs anywhere else in the 1700's.

im not sure if theres any further info available. im pretty happy with the male line which i think is likely to be correct, itll probably never be certain. ellastone is only a small hamlet.

[Zen rabbit]

Jonathan Finney 1678 - 1734 is on my family tree and married Anne Heath. Though I do not have an actual marriage record. On the will admin for Jonathan Finney (probate 14 Nov 1734) there is the bottom section where the goods etc. are signed over to Ann. Of the signatories at the bottom are Hen[ry] Heath and John Heath. A search of the parish records shows that Richard Heath & Ann Langford had three children (amongst others) HENRY bap 21 Sept 1676, ANN bap 2 Oct 1679, and JOHN bap 17 May 1683 (all in Ellastone). I believe the signatories to be Ann's brothers and that Ann herself was the wife of Jonathan Finney.
I would actually be very interested in the marriage record to Ann Heath. Did this take place in Ellestone? I don't have it in my records.

[Zen rabbit]

Jonathan & Ann had five children according to my research John 1709-1717, Samuel 1712- 1788 (it was his son by Jane who met Jean-Jacques Rousseau when he stayed at Wootton Hall), George 1715-1750, William 1718-1791, and Thomas 1721-1790. Which line is yours?

Also re: the wife of Raphe Finney Having studied the Parish records I have come to the conclusion that this Raphe Finney did not marry Margery Sant in leek as previously thought. That Margery was almost certainly the wife of Ralph Finney of White Lea Farm near Bradnop. The marriage record gives us Ralph Finney of Whitelee & Margery Sant of Goldsich. They had several children all at White lea. Currently Margaret (unknown surname) seems to be the best bet for the Wife of Raphe. they had four children two (Ann 1628 and Thomas 1630) born in the Mayfield area close to Ellastone, and two William 1636-1712 and Dorothy 1640 born in Ellestone. Dorothy was baptised in 1640 after the death of her father on 16 May 1640. Her baptism on 15 Aug 1640 reads Darothy dau of Margarett Finney, vidua (widow)

Incidently Raphe is still a name that is used. I worked many years with a Raphe Finney

[robert g shaw]

Jonathan & Ann had five children according to my research John 1709-1717, Samuel 1712- 1788 (it was his son by Jane who met Jean-Jacques Rousseau when he stayed at Wootton Hall), George 1715-1750, William 1718-1791, and Thomas 1721-1790. Which line is yours?

Also re: the wife of Raphe Finney Having studied the Parish records I have come to the conclusion that this Raphe Finney did not marry Margery Sant in leek as previously thought. That Margery was almost certainly the wife of Ralph Finney of White Lea Farm near Bradnop. The marriage record gives us Ralph Finney of Whitelee & Margery Sant of Goldsich. They had several children all at White lea. Currently Margaret (unknown surname) seems to be the best bet for the Wife of Raphe. they had four children two (Ann 1628 and Thomas 1630) born in the Mayfield area close to Ellastone, and two William 1636-1712 and Dorothy 1640 born in Ellestone. Dorothy was baptised in 1640 after the death of her father on 16 May 1640. Her baptism on 15 Aug 1640 reads Darothy dau of Margarett Finney, vidua (widow)

Incidently Raphe is still a name that is used. I worked many years with a Raphe Finney

hi

william 1718-1791 is my line, he married ann salt in 1742, had john 1753 who married elizabeth wardle in 1781. their son charles 1785 married ellen kent in 1805 and their son george 1834 had my great grandmother emily in 1859. i have a picture of emily.

yes, i agree about ralph who married margery sant. william 1636 baptism clearly says 'son of ralph and wife'. so either ralph 1612 married someone around 1634 and she died soon after william was born and william re-married, or it was a different ralph.

you beat me there, i had yet to discover further siblings of william 1636, thanks for that! however there might be a problem. youre ann 1628 would mean that father ralph 1612 would only be 16. so whilst ralph 1612 is likely to be our william 1636s father, could he be the mayfield childrens father?

jonathons marriage to ann heath is easily found. on family search theres all the info including a photo of the entry of the registration.

jonathon finney born 1680 of ellison (ellaston) and ann heath of hanbury/marchington (close parishes to ellastone) 7th june 1707. (1680 close enough to 1678). married at hanbury or marchington

cheers

[Zen rabbit]

Thanks for the marriage info on Ann and Jonathan.
With regard to Raphe. While 16 is young to father a child it would not be unknown. Unfortunately there are few records for that era. What records that exist that i have found are as follows (for Raphe & Ralph Finney)
Parish records:
23/02/1541 bap Rauffe son of Robert and Elizabeth, Ellastone
01/12/1583 bap Raphe son of Thomas Finney, Ellastone
22/08/1599 bap Ales (Alice?) dau of Raphe Buxtones, of Ilam, husbandman & Elizabeth Finney, spin (added to show that illegitimate births were recorded as such), Ellastone
23/02/1612 bap Raphe son of John Finney, Ellastone
Then
16/05/1628 bap Anna dau of Radulpli & Margaretae, Mayfield
24/12/1630 bap Thomas son of Radulpli & Margaretae, Mayfield
19/10/1635 bap Anna dau of Ralph & Anne Finney, of Bradnop (Leek)
10/10/1636 bap William Son of Raphe Finney, Ellastone
18/06/1637 bap Ellen dau of Ralph Finney of Bradnop (Leek)
16/05/1640 Burial Raphe Finney, Ellastone (supposedly a memorial in Ellastone Churchyard which I have not found)
15/08/1640 bap Darothy dau of Margrett Finney, vidua (widow), Ellastone
08/10/1640 Mar. Ralph Finney or Whitelee & Margery Sant of Goldsich (Leek)
07/11/1642 bap Alice dau of Ralph & Margerie Finney of Whitelee (Leek)
30/10/1644 Burial Ralph Finney of Bradnop.
There are a few more births in Leek to Ralph & Margery
Certainly Dorothy was a daughter of Raphe & Margarett (his last child) which makes me inclined to think that the births in Mayfield are also of this family. Unfortunately Margarett is a bit of a mystery figure I have found no marriage for her and Raphe as yet and there is no burial record for her that i can see.
There is, as you will see, an earlier Raphe Finney baptised in 1583 son of Thomas Fynny. If he was our Raphe then he would be 53 at the birth of William and 57 at the time of his death when Dorothy was born. Again not impossible as our elusive Margaret could be a young wife.

[robert g shaw]

yes its certainly frustrating. i too had noticed the ralph 1583, in fact his brother john is i think possibly 'our' ralphs father (1612) .

i have as a possibility...

william 1636 (i think certain jonathans father) was the son of ralph 1612.
ralph 1612 parents were john 1578 who married joan higginbotham in 1598 at ellastone
john 1578 father was thomas fynnye 1555 ellastone, unknown mother
thomas 1555 parents were thomas 1528 who married margaret walker(1532-1600) in 1553 at ellastone.

so  the known ralphs were either 16 or 48 when ann 1628 was born. or, there is another unrecorded ralph.

for my proposed tree to be right, ralph 1612 needs to be williams 1636 father, we know william 1636s father was ralph. i agree that dorothy was the daughter of ralph and margaret,  ralphs burial is recorded just a few entries above dorothys baptism.

i too have been around ellastone churchyard and found a forest of finney burials in a plot. but all to recent (mid 1700s - late 1800s) and this is borne out on the 'wishful thinking' website.... memorial insciptions
http://places.wishful-thinking.org.uk/STS/Ellastone/MIs.html

it has other counties too...handy!

i know family search are adding new records all the time. ive been shocked to find with ease some records that non of the 'big 3' sites had any record of just a couple of years ago. so theres hope that a ralph/margaret marriage will be found yet. but until that happens i think our line of certainty stops at william 1636 - which isnt bad! beyond that, my proposed tree is rather speculative and relies heavily on scant info being correct.

ps.... when i originally searched this a couple of years ago, i had williams parents as ralph and ann sant. i can find no info on this now, maybe it was incorrect and has been removed.

regards - rob.