Robert Williams in Mold 1834

[pimpernel]

I'm dubious of the Holywell and Bagillt references though - Bagillt is on the North Eastern coast of Flintshire, a long way from Mold, Minera and Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd. And again, in the censuses there is the issue of the age gap between Robert and Hannah.

[Gadget]

Bagillt is 8.5 miles from Mold and 21 miles from Minera. I'd not call that very far.


Gadget

Add - and 20.7 miles from Llanfair DC

[pimpernel]

Many thanks for help with this issue everyone!

I just received the copy of Dec qtr 1862 Holywell 11b 517 record from the GRO, and again it seems to be a different couple, the age difference is just 2 years between bride & groom:
William (28) son of Mesech Williams, and Hannah (26) daughter of Robert Jones, both resident in Holywell. Witnesses Peter Williams and Rebecca Jones.

I don't think this is the right marriage due the lack of an age gap between the couple. There is one other local Robert Williams/Hannah Jones in Holywell though ( Sept qtr 1858, Holywell 11b 377 ), or at least the only other one shown by Free BMD, if this is the right one Hannah would be a young bride of 18, if the later censuses are to be believed. So it looks like back to the GRO!

If it turns out not to be that one either, then the only other possibilities that strike me are

1) They married further away. The lack of census evidence prior to 1881 bothers me, there is such a gap in records, it’s possible Robert and Hannah were nowhere near North Wales when they married. 
2) They married in an independant chapel that hasn’t been transcribed 
3) They lied about ages when they married,  (though I don’t see any record suggesting that, or reason for doing so)
4) The records are lost.

[pimpernel]

Hello everyone, a brief update on this. I sent off for the remaining Holywell record (Sep qtr 1858 Holywell 11b377), the GRO today mailed me to say "Each page in a register contains several marriage entries. The persons requested are on this page at the reference you quoted, however they are not married to each other".

So, that cancels that. The other Holywell record on Free BMD ( Dec qtr 1862 Holywell 11b 517 ) was definitely another family, so back to square one!

Wife Hannah's family at least seems to be quite clear - The 1881 census establishes that Hannah’s maiden name was Jones because she had two siblings, Robert and Mary Jones, conveniently (for researchers!) living with them in the Minera Cottage “Gottaea”. So I’m fairly confident that her parents were Robert Jones & Mary (nee Powell), as these siblings are listed with their father in the 1871.

The 8-10 year age gap between older Robert & younger Hannah as recorded in the 1881 and 91 censuses isn’t reflected in any of the marriage records I’ve seen so far, I’m wondering if there has been a mis-calculation? After all this, the Wrexham 31st May 1862 marriage still seems the closest - the names all match, including that of Hannah’s father Robert Jones, but there’s only a 3 year age gap between bride & groom, and earlier censuses show Hannah’s father Robert Jones was a circular sawyer, quite a difference from ‘engineer’ as stated in this marriage certificate. The Holywell marriage in the same year is the same - right father for Hannah, but not enough of an age gap.

It's interesting that the Wrexham marriage took place in a Registry Office rather than a church or chapel. The witnesses are Tho Walker (?) and Arthur Davies, no immediate family involved.

I'm thinking then, either some deliberate mis-quoting of age in either the Holywell or the Wrexham 1862 marriage documents, or their marriage took place much further afield - maybe Robert and Hannah met and married outside Denbighshire, there was a lot of migrating for work in the 19th century, and their apparent absence from the 1861 and 1871 censuses suggests this could be the case. But was it easy for couples to marry outside both their parishes?

[Gadget]

I've seen quite few couples  from the NE Wales counties marrying in the Manchester area. There's no problem with marrying outside the parishes as the residence qualifications was only 3 weeks.

They could have been embarrassed about the age gap and gave false ages or the clerk/registrar/vicar misheard or recorded it incorrectly.

Lots of possibles but no definites   

Gadget

[pimpernel]

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm drawn back to one or other of the 1862 weddings as correct. There may have been several Robert Williams = Hannah Jones marriages in the county, but how many of those would have a Robert Jones as the bride's father? Seeing these two, both in the same year, is already pushing the boundaries of coincidence!