Author Topic: Toole Family  (Read 1253 times)

Offline Cai Thomas

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Toole Family
« on: Thursday 22 February 18 20:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi Everyone,

I have previously posted on here with respect to:

James Frederick Toole

"James Frederick Toole was born on 9 January 1796 in Aldgate, Middlesex, the son of Mr. Toole. He married Elizabeth Bertout on 6 September 1818 in Newington, Surrey. They had six children in 10 years. He died on 31 January 1847 at the age of 51, and was buried in Nunhead, Surrey"

and

John Toole

John Toole was born in 1801 in Middlesex, the son of Mr. Toole. He married Ann Trist on 6 July 1824 in his hometown. They had one child during their marriage. He died on 5 March 1838 in London, at the age of 37, and was buried in England.

But we have no idea as to their parents.

Until now it was believed that their parents where from Middlesex / London.

However the Son on J F Toole was a famous actor called John Lawrence Toole.

"When John Lawrence Toole was born on 12 March 1830 in London, his father, James, was 34 and his mother, Elizabeth, was 36. He married Susan Caslake on 27 April 1854 in London, London. They had two children during their marriage. He died on 30 July 1906 in London, London, having lived a long life of 76 years, and was buried in Kensal Green, Middlesex."

Now having contacted the Masonic Lodges, it shows that his father or grandfather was originally from Ireland.

Which means that James Frederick Toole could have originally been born in Ireland, but it is almost certain that his brother was born in England.

There are multiple sources stating the irish connection.

Some help would be greatly appreciated.

This is the old London/Middlesex thread which is now discounted, due to multiple sources confirming an Irish origin.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=777735.msg6316426#msg6316426

There is a suggestion that they could have come from Antrim, but this is purely guessing.

A potential is John Toole and Mary Fearny  but i cannot see a mention of John toole, only James Toole
Wolley (London, Middlesex), Toole (London & Kings Langley hertfordshire, Bertout, Dadge, Griffiths, Worsley (Lancashire), Lewis & Tift (Lancashire), Mapstone/Mabston/Mapston

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 22 February 18 20:57 GMT (UK) »
There is a suggestion that they could have come from Antrim, but this is purely guessing.
Guess based on what?

For reference-
Toole / O'Toole In London (London & Middlesex)
O'Toole Antrim B ABT. 1765 D ABT 1818 (Antrim) "So I have had a hint, which suggests a Baptism of 19 Mar 1797 - Armagh, Ireland"
James Frederick Toole 09 01 1796 -> 31 01 1847 (London & Middlesex)
Parents of John Toole (Devon)
James Frederick Toole - Parents of (London & Middlesex)
Thomas Toole / Tooley 1753-1828 (England)
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline Cai Thomas

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 22 February 18 21:01 GMT (UK) »
There is a suggestion that they could have come from Antrim, but this is purely guessing.
Guess based on what?

For reference-
Toole / O'Toole In London (London & Middlesex)
O'Toole Antrim B ABT. 1765 D ABT 1818 (Antrim) "So I have had a hint, which suggests a Baptism of 19 Mar 1797 - Armagh, Ireland"
James Frederick Toole 09 01 1796 -> 31 01 1847 (London & Middlesex)
Parents of John Toole (Devon)
James Frederick Toole - Parents of (London & Middlesex)
Thomas Toole / Tooley 1753-1828 (England)

The hint was from a relatives family tree, though there is no documentation to back it up and from their own admittance it was from just fumbling around on Ancestry.

Yes there is a baptism record,  I have spent several hours following down this line, but i can't find a similar record for the brother with the same parents.

Most of the previous work was based around english parentage, but the masonic documentation quite clearly suggests Irish parentage/lineage.
Wolley (London, Middlesex), Toole (London & Kings Langley hertfordshire, Bertout, Dadge, Griffiths, Worsley (Lancashire), Lewis & Tift (Lancashire), Mapstone/Mabston/Mapston

Offline hallmark

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 22 February 18 21:53 GMT (UK) »
O'Toole Antrim B ABT. 1765 D ABT 1818 (Antrim) "So I have had a hint, which suggests a Baptism of 19 Mar 1797 - Armagh, Ireland"


When he was 32??
Give a man a record and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to research, and you feed him for a lifetime.


Offline Cai Thomas

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #4 on: Friday 23 February 18 19:19 GMT (UK) »
O'Toole Antrim B ABT. 1765 D ABT 1818 (Antrim) "So I have had a hint, which suggests a Baptism of 19 Mar 1797 - Armagh, Ireland"


When he was 32??

A very good point! Sorry I must have been very tired when I posted this. Apologies.

In which case, all we know is that the dad was from Ireland.The mother was most likely living in england in Devon when John was born.
Wolley (London, Middlesex), Toole (London & Kings Langley hertfordshire, Bertout, Dadge, Griffiths, Worsley (Lancashire), Lewis & Tift (Lancashire), Mapstone/Mabston/Mapston

Offline thomastoole

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 01 March 23 15:04 GMT (UK) »
Hey there Cai; I've been away from all of this family history stuff for almost 10 years - and had never been on RootsChat before.  So, it's taken me a while to review and re-validate my Toole family tree back to John and Ann (nee Trist) Toole.

Here are a few things to add to your files to perhaps help find James' (and John's) parents.

Although John and Ann (nee Trist) Toole did have one son, named - John Lawrence (exactly the same as John's brother, James' son), he didn't die young or without family as your long ago post suggests. He was my gg Grandpa. Although I have not been able to find a birth certificate, all census data, marriage records etc agree JL was born about 1824 in Exmouth, Devon (which is where his mother, Ann Trist was from).  After John (the dad) died in 1838, the 1841 census shows a 41 yo Ann and a 14 yo John living with James Toole's family in St Botolph, Without Bishopsgate. Given the location, the fact that James' age and the age of his son, John (11 years old) also living there, the age of Ann and the 2nd John Toole child in the household and the likelihood that James and the late John were brothers (and that James would support Ann and JL after John's death), I am reasonably confident that this census record is the one we are both interested in.

In the 1851 Census, my gg grandfather, John Lawrence Toole, was living with his mother Ann in Trinity, Newington, Surrey AND working as a clerk at the East/West India Co - exactly like his Uncle James.

In the 1861 Census, JL was the head of household living with his wife Charlotte Trist (nee Bailey), his first daughter and his mother Ann, in Limehouse, Stepney, Middlesex and still working as a clerk (although not stated, I believe he was still at the East?West India Company.) 

In the 1871 Census, JL was the head of household living with his wife, Charlotte, 3 daughters and his 4 yo son, William John Bailey Toole (my great grandfather0, and his 71 yo mother, Ann, in Kensington, London and working as a clerk in the East/West India Co.

JL died on 2 Nov 1872 in Torquay, Newton Abbott, Devon. The death certificate indicates his cause of death was "Falling off a cliff".  If my history of the East/West India Co is correct, the company lost it's royal exclusivity for trade sometime in the early 1870s and closed its doors soon thereafter - which, in all likelihood resulted in JL being without employment with a wife and 4 kids in the house. My guess is - his "fall" was no accident. 

Now all the above will probably not help you (because it hasn't helped me) find out who John's (and James') father and mother were.  However, given that both James and John named their sons "John Lawrence", I have to believe the middle name "Lawrence" is significant to the blood line.  Although I have seen no documents indicating that JL's father, John, had or used a middle name. It's possible it too was Lawrence. So, I'm going to start searching (and perhaps hire someone) to start chasing down Lawrence (first name or middle name) Toole records.

 A "confounding" fact (at least to me) is that neither "Frederick" nor "Lawrence" are typical Irish names. So, assuming that Toole's father was from Ireland, it may very well be that Frederick and Lawrence came from James' and John's mother's side - and that she was actually English through and through.  Just a thought....

Cheers;

Tom 

Offline shanreagh

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 02 March 23 00:08 GMT (UK) »
Lawrence and Frederick  not  typical Irish names......I have not heard that before.

I have seen baptisms with Lawrence/Laurence on them going back many years in Ireland.  It may have come from a female ancestor ie maiden name being used or it may have been a family first name. My gt gt uncle was born in  the 1850s in Ireland and his name was Frederick.

Have you been searching on here?

https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
There are hundreds and thousands of Tooles, Lawrences, Laurences and various combos going back in some cases to the 1700s.
or on Griffiths
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
Tithe Applotments
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp
2 Lawrence Tooles in 1823/33

Census and fragments?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

PRONI records

NLI records


Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 02 March 23 00:19 GMT (UK) »
O'Toole Antrim B ABT. 1765 D ABT 1818 (Antrim) "So I have had a hint, which suggests a Baptism of 19 Mar 1797 - Armagh, Ireland"


When he was 32??

Those Ancestry hints are the dumbest things, aren't they?
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Toole Family
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 02 March 23 00:25 GMT (UK) »
Lawrence not a typical Irish name......I have not heard that before.


Not clear to me what you mean here by Laurence not being a typical Irish name.
Maybe not as a surname, but quite Irish as a Christian name - for St. Lawrence O'Toole, archbishop of Dublin. One of very few (two?) canonized Irish saints before the modern era. The many hundreds of others being saints by acclamation rather than canonization. Patron saint of Dublin.

Given that the family surname is Toole, Lawrence seems very apt.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09091b.htm
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area