Frater/Harvey Marriage

[Chris Frater]

Looking for the marriage of John Frater and Isobel Harvey/Harvie

Also looking for the birth of John Frater, its like a needle in a haystack. I think born abt 1770/1780 area he was certainly deceased by 1851 when his youngest son listed him as deceased on shipping papers, he was not on the 1841 census with Isabel in Yetholm, Scotland so I am guessing that he died between the birth of youngest son in 1828 and 1841.
Possible birth for John Frater.
(I have a feeling that John Frater will end up being a brother to Thomas Frater 1769-1839  Andrew Frater 1775-1845 and David Frater 1762 Parents being David Frater and Dorothy Allison that married in 1756 Ilderton, Northumberland, England.) Not  that feelings are any good for adding to family history. (Only been able to find 3 children for David and Dorothy I am sure there will be more)


I have the  following children for John and Isobel. (Thanks to Betty McKenzie a few years back)
John Frater 11 Oct 1812 Shotten, Northumberland, England
Jane Frater 17 Mar 1814 Shilbottle, Northumberland, England
Thomas Frater 6 May 1816 Shildean, Kirknewton, Northumberland, England
George Frater 3 Jul 1818 Shildean, Kirk-Newton, Northumberland, England
Isabel Frater 8 Jun 1821 Kilham, Kirk-Newton, Northumberland, England
James Frater 11 Aug 1824 Shildean, Kirk-Newton, Northumberland, England
Alice Frater 29 Jun 1826 Kilham, Kirk-Newton, Northumberland, England
Alexander Frater 15 Dec 1828 Crookham, Northumberland, England

Thanking you in advance for any new ideas
Chris

[belhay]

Possible help

Thomas Frater wife Isabella had a daughter Isabella born at Kirk newton about 1808 so it,s possible John was also there at Kirknewton
young Isabella was at Bamburgh 1851 census and the headstone for thomas and children  is at bamburgh

[Chris Frater]

Possible help

Thomas Frater wife Isabella had a daughter Isabella born at Kirk newton about 1808 so it,s possible John was also there at Kirknewton
young Isabella was at Bamburgh 1851 census and the headstone for thomas and children  is at bamburgh

John is not the son of Thomas Frater and Isabella Weddle, John  however is most likely to be a brother of Thomas Frater.  And Thomas and Isabella did also have a son John in 1806 Kirknewton.

But  the  John Frater above  is also the father of children born in 1812 so there is no way that he is the son of Thomas and Isabella as this would of made him only 6 year old when he had his own children. Tho there is lots of trees on ancestry  as having them as father and son (I really wish people would do their homework)

[belhay]

yes I do know your John was not the son of Thomas but as they were both at Kirknewton around the same time I thought perhaps they were brothers or cousins My own family of Hays mover around Northumberland but always had cousins 2nd cousins etc in the same places

[Pennines]

This is just a suggestion - but with them being from Northumberland - might it be possible they had an 'irregular marriage' in one of the Scottish border towns, such as Coldstream Bridge, Lamberton Toll, Mordington, Paxton - or of course Gretna Green?

I only mention this as a possibility because a Northumberland ancestor of a friend had such a marriage. They were cheap - there was no formality and it was easy.

I seem to think (but could be wrong) - that Northumberland Family History Society MAY have some of these records. Don't take that as gospel though - it's just something in the back of my mind. (I can't trust the front of my mind - never mind the back!)

[belhay]

I  have part2 of border marriages and they are not listed
However if you look on ScotlandsPeople government website you will see there was an Isabell Hope at Yetholm
who had a daughter Jane to John Frater 1812          Also in 1788 Yetholm a son
Thomas was born to David Frater and Betty Fleck
the 1841 census at Yetholm for Isabell Frater might be  Isabell (nee)Hope not Harvey

[Chris Frater]

Thank you Pennines, we have kept this in mind, they are very elusive lot

Yes belhay, I have those records also from Yetholm, and think that Jane may well be the illeg. child of our John Frater but as yet no proof.
I also think that Thomas is illeg. child of David  as Betty went on to marry another guy not long after.
Isabell Frater in the 1841 census is Harvey as she had our Alexander with her and his brother and agin in the 1851 census had another of the sons with her.
I have no doubt that all these Frater's around Yetholm and the borders of Northumberland are all connected its just a matter of joining the dots and getting them all in the right places. Not an easy task as getting back there the records are so few and far between.

Thank you all for taking a look at it all, its always great to have fresh eyes look at things as you never know what may turn up

Chris