Author Topic: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones  (Read 1475 times)

Offline chandmer

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 14 April 18 20:48 BST (UK) »
WOW! Thank you so much for your help, already so many good questions.

First - "muddled online family tree" that's mostly my doing. The version on ancestry is cribbed (by them) from the one I've been doing on family search, which almost always contains a link or a reference to primary documentation.

Second - I am aware of the town of Hanmer - I've even visited it long ago. I've reviewed the various Hanmer family trees both there and in Myddle from the relevant time period, but there's no obvious contenders, like for instance a "Leah Hanmer" born about 1790 - but I could look again.

Lydia Jones' children are listed in her death certificate, which can be viewed here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6UWpzWi1VWFdLZkE (and here)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6VW9nRDFYam92Sm80S3FrWjF2QVM1TUNqOThB

There is a John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry who had two children (Owen and Mary) in about 1815 (eg https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33D-R97). There are also numerous Williamses in Wolverhampton who have roughly the right names and dates, but nothing compelling.

John Jones (senior) and John Williams are both listed as labourers in the 1845 marriage certificate. John Jones was given as a miller in his marriage certificate, but in Australia worked as a sweep, a miner, and possibly a sailor. His son worked as a thresher for a time before becoming a farmer.

Earliest written record of Handmer-like name is in 1856 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6bkVGZEJVaThIcDg). John Jones' name is given here as John Amer Jones, and his daughter (his last child before Lydia's death) as Mary Ellen Hangmer Jones. Confusingly, Mary Ellen was renamed Lydia after her mother died and lived with Leah for a few years before accidentally drowning in about 1863. The informant in Mary Ellen/Lydia's birth record is Leah, who was about 16 at the time and barely literate - so spellings vary throughout her family's life. By 1875 (when the next generation survivors resurfaced as adults) they were no longer Jones.

I think that answers most of the questions thus far, I'll check back though!

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Offline chandmer

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 14 April 18 21:19 BST (UK) »
More details:

I think the Liverpool entry for the 1841 census is convincing. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sjo6N6KjFIzjC9INVKaAQylTHfeCCvoC Thank you for finding this!!

John Jones' death certificate has not been located. I made a thorough search of court, prison, and newspaper records in Victoria between 1858 (the year of Lydia's death) and 1865 (they year a lot of stuff happened), and after John Jones was sentenced to two weeks hard labor for stealing oats, I lose the trail. Newspaper coverage: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197092090?searchTerm=john%20jones&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria%7C%7C%7Cl-decade=186%7C%7C%7Cl-year=1865%7C%7C%7Cl-month=12%7C%7C%7Cl-availability=y%7C%7C%7Cl-australian=y%7C%7C%7Cl-title=582

Plenty of John Jones to go around, but I've checked every death certificate in the right age window and none of them are the right one. It would be really nice to find his death certificate, though! I sometimes wonder how they find out info for the death certificate, though, if no-one else around knew the details.

For context, in 1865, John's eldest Leah was married to a local farmer, his next son (my great great grandfather) Charles Thomas Jones had disappeared at age 14, possibly to sea, his next youngest, John Ezra had been shipped off to industrial school until 1873, when he disappears, and his youngest daughter Mary Ellen/Lydia, was already dead. All of this is reasonably well documented and I can share if people are interested, but it's also pretty sad - fair warning.

Leah's christening record is barely readable - though I'm pleased to have found "FindMyPast"! Can anyone help me identify the place names listed and the comment at the end of the line? https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bHVkiN0Q8RGUkKZUM0xQHXkjq3Go8zFU

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 14 April 18 21:29 BST (UK) »
Quote
There is a John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry who had two children (Owen and Mary) in about 1815 (eg https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33D-R97). There are also numerous Williamses in Wolverhampton who have roughly the right names and dates, but nothing compelling.

Both baptisms show John and Ellen/Eleanor as living in Leg Street which is fairly central. I'm wondering if the Mary could have changed her name to Lydia at some stage prior to Leah's birth, especially with the daughters named  Mary Ellen. Just an outside possible but there was nothing to prevent her doing so.  It might be worth trying to trace the Mary. I've checked (as you probably have) for a baptism in the surrounding counties of Denbighshire and Montgomeryshire in addition to Shropshire but nothing showing. I grew up in that area and the county boundaries weave in and out!

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Offline chandmer

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 15 April 18 00:45 BST (UK) »
I have been able to track down the John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry. They appear in the 1841 census (Salop Road) and 1851 census (Weston Lane). John seems to become a Malster in about 1830. They have a lot of children between 1818 and 1833, including Owen, Mary, Edward, John, Margaret, Emma&Elizabeth (twins), and probably another Mary. They were both born in Northern Wales, and I'm currently trying to track down their BMD details.

Offline emeltom

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 15 April 18 08:43 BST (UK) »
The baptism entry for Leah reads

Nov 6   Leah   John + Lydia   Jones   Maclydd Trefonen   Labourer   Edw.d Jones   (Private)

Emeltom
Smith Tiplady Boulton Branthwaite King Miller Woolfall Bretherton Archer and many more

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 15 April 18 08:47 BST (UK) »
I have been able to track down the John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry. They appear in the 1841 census (Salop Road) and 1851 census (Weston Lane). John seems to become a Malster in about 1830. They have a lot of children between 1818 and 1833, including Owen, Mary, Edward, John, Margaret, Emma&Elizabeth (twins), and probably another Mary. They were both born in Northern Wales, and I'm currently trying to track down their BMD details.


I don't think Elizabeth and Emma were twins (1841 - Elizabeth was 12 and Emma was 10). From the baptism records they were baptised on same day rather than born on same day.

I see (1851) that John was born Llandogay (possibly Llandegla) and Ellen/Eleanor Llansanffraid (?Glan Conway or Glyn Ceiriog) as both say b. Denbighshire.

Possible death for Ellen/Eleanor in 1854:
Oswestry 13 Sept 1854 Eleanor Williams, Leg Street, aged 59

An interesting entry on the 1861 for a John Williams, 70, journeyman brewer, b. Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire. He is married to an Elizabeth, aged 53. It might be worth chasing up.

Emelton - . It's Moelydd, Trefonen - location to the SW of Trefonen. Have sent OP the map location , etc. See your reply #1

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 15 April 18 09:49 BST (UK) »
Link to map showing location of Moelydd:


https://maps.nls.uk/view/101593828#zoom=3&lat=4354&lon=7016&layers=BT

(NLS links are playing up today!)


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Offline chandmer

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 15 April 18 18:49 BST (UK) »
Good find on a possible death - would there be a death certificate somewhere with more biographical information?

I tried to follow up and this is as close as I got: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gpf4osLCPsUO2Iiz8hE9jz7ZBlAa04we - none of the records on ancestry or familysearch seem to contain age at death - where is the best place to find this information? EDIT: Found it on findmypast. Still not sure how to find more detailed biographical info.

On Lydia's death certificate, it says she's 43 years old in 1858, which would place her birth in 1815. It also states that she was married at age 24, which would place the marriage at 1839, before Leah's (otherwise illegitimate) birth. We know that her marriage actually occurred in 1845, so either she was married at age 29, or she was born in about 1821 (and had Leah at age 19) and died at age 37, or somewhere in between these values.

Any chance wrjones might chime in?

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Re: Supporting documentation for John Jones, Lydia Williams, Leah Emazine Jones
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 15 April 18 19:33 BST (UK) »
England & Wales death certs usually have very little info - often not even spouse's name. 
You can order here:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

Also, the burial info that I gave has as much info as you'll find online - FindMyPast is probably the best source. Maybe check for newspaper reports - see https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

or, again, via FindMyPast.


Gadget

PS -wr and I often work in tandem in this area  ;D
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