Author Topic: Demaine, france?  (Read 3130 times)

Offline iluleah

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 20 May 18 21:13 BST (UK) »
I am assuming you know how surnames came into being?

They were chosen just the same as given names are from the language heard, spoken or which influenced the person taking it. At the time of  taking surnames ( for taxation purposes) Latin, French and English was spoken in the UK so thousands of people took words from  the French language( or Latin or English) and used it as their surname, it doesn't mean they or their ancestry was French.

One of my maternal lines is Dalby, clearly from a French word, yet I know via record research the person who chose it, changed his name from Seagrave ( another French word) and prior to that used no surname and from land records the land was passed from father to son, none used a surname and they were English born/bred.... use of French names suited a purpose for my ancestors and I am sure for many thousands of others who had no French ancestry at all
 
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline arthurk

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #10 on: Monday 21 May 18 10:55 BST (UK) »
One of my maternal lines is Dalby, clearly from a French word, yet I know via record research the person who chose it, changed his name from Seagrave ( another French word) and prior to that used no surname and from land records the land was passed from father to son, none used a surname and they were English born/bred.... use of French names suited a purpose for my ancestors and I am sure for many thousands of others who had no French ancestry at all

I'm a bit puzzled as to how you reach the conclusion that these names are of French origin, and overlook the fact that many English surnames derive from place names.

In fact the usual derivation given for both Dalby and Seagrave is that they come from villages of those names: this could typically happen if someone moved to a new village, so "John from Dalby" would become "John Dalby".

There are variants of the place name Dalby in Yorkshire (Low Dalby, near Pickering) and Leicestershire (Old, Great and Little, all near Melton Mowbray). Seagrave is also in Leicestershire, between Melton Mowbray and Loughborough.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline iluleah

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #11 on: Monday 21 May 18 11:14 BST (UK) »
Quote
I'm a bit puzzled as to how you reach the conclusion that these names are of French origin, and overlook the fact that many English surnames derive from place names.

Where do you think these villages got their names from in the first place?
D'Alby and De Segrave is how they started life 1000yrs ago, French words taken in England from the Norman French language spoken to name villages which in turn when people took surnames it was often as you state from where they lived  or owned land eg ' John from Dalby'
Names do not tell you where someones ancestry is from, at best it is a clue to the language the word came from and words/names changed over time to fit the place/time/people.
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend


Offline Vance Mead

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #12 on: Monday 21 May 18 12:07 BST (UK) »
The name Dalby would have a Scandinavian origin, particularly in the northeastern counties of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dal meaning valley, by meaning farm or settlement.

Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline arthurk

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #13 on: Monday 21 May 18 13:41 BST (UK) »
There are dozens, if not hundreds, of places down the east side of England with names of Scandinavian origin ending in -by. I find it hard to accept the suggestion that the name of any of the Dalbys should have a radically different origin from the many other nearby places with -by names.

Seagrave, I believe, is a name with Old English origins. It's in the Domesday Book as either Segrave or Setgrave, and is thought to refer to a grove near a pit or pool ('seath'), or near a pen ('set').
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline iluleah

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #14 on: Monday 21 May 18 15:12 BST (UK) »
The name Dalby would have a Scandinavian origin, particularly in the northeastern counties of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Dal meaning valley, by meaning farm or settlement.

Yes, the word was used during Danelaw, not in that area, however the same or similar words are often used in different languages and developed over time into the words we now use... so Dalby could have developed  from a number of words from various languages, such as Scandinavian, Irish, Hebrew, French the example I gave is my knowledge and research of my ancestry, history of the area, when the name was first used for a place and so where the WORD was likely to have come from ...which is French Norman and after the Norman was given that land whose name ( de Albi/d'alby)used to name the 'village' so of Albi in France.

Not sure why you think it important as they are all words from 'language origins' word history/etymology is not FH research
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline arthurk

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #15 on: Monday 21 May 18 15:59 BST (UK) »
I think the point was that, as seems to have happened with the OP's Demaine, there has sometimes been a tendency to try to glamorise a surname by claiming a French origin (such as Norman French, or later Huguenot) simply on the basis that it sounds or looks French, when the evidence points to something else.

Redmonds has been studying and writing on Yorkshire surnames for years, and I think he knows his stuff. I don't know anything about McKinley, but Redmonds' endorsement of his explanation for Demaine is probably significant.

In the case of the surnames Dalby and Seagrave, there are plausible explanations for their origins which don't involve French ancestry, but they do involve a likely origin in villages whose names aren't French either.

I agree that there could feasibly be a Norman-French surname d'Albi (though I have yet to find it), but I think it was more usual for the Norman overlords to append their surname to an existing place name (eg Stanton Harcourt), rather than just replace the existing name with their surname.

I'm sure you're also aware that since official records were written in French or Latin, a reference to, say, 'John de Segrave' is not evidence of him being of French origin, simply that he was John from ('de') Se(a)grave.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline iluleah

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #16 on: Monday 21 May 18 16:07 BST (UK) »
As said

Quote
Not sure why you think it important as they are all words from 'language origins' word history/etymology is not FH research

I choose not to comment on what others think/do or if a word used for a surname is 'glamorous' or not
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline arthurk

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Re: Demaine, france?
« Reply #17 on: Monday 21 May 18 16:25 BST (UK) »
Not sure why you think it important as they are all words from 'language origins' word history/etymology is not FH research

Except that this thread wasn't about FH research but about the origins of a surname, and that can only be properly answered with reference to etymology.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk