Author Topic: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]  (Read 74352 times)

Offline Love&Leaves

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #576 on: Thursday 04 June 20 20:25 BST (UK) »
Okay this is turning out to be an interesting day....

Now Ancestry turns up Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence who died 1 Aug 1917... with Georgina claiming for him.   So it looks as if this is definitely Vincent dying in action.

The service record for Francis Spence (who married Ann) shows him discharged in 1912, being older (despite lying on his marriage cert) so just need to find him on 1939 register to confirm what happened to him....

Also, I was advised about a project the Western Front Association are running a project on men who served under an alias!  It was started in March and already has thousands of men who had two names!  Seems it was very common.  Apparently they are planning to research these men and why they choose to sign up under an alias.

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/latest-news/april-2020/project-alias-and-project-capture-how-wfa-members-are-working-on-the-pension-records/
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline Love&Leaves

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #577 on: Thursday 04 June 20 23:24 BST (UK) »
Have managed to research Francis Spence and Ann Fenton.  He is the man pictured above, was originally married to Lily but then married Ann, fought and survived WW1 and he and Ann went on to have at least three children.  He died in 1955.

So, our Vincent Battista served as Frank V Spence in the Middlesex Regiment and died in Flanders 1 August 1917.  He is buried in a war cemetery there (see picture).

The reason he assumed an alias is still unknown but it now seems it was quite a common thing to do.. hopefully the project I mentioned above will shed some light on why.

The only anomaly's that remain are:
1) Francis Age - he was born in 1876 but on marrying Lily he noted his age as 25 not 29 and on marrying Ann he is 28 not 34!  Most likely this was because the women were much younger than him.  Lily was 21 and Ann 25.
2) The Tynemouth Memorial to Vincent Battista states his death as 24 Sep 1916.  It seems it is not unusual for someone to have used an alias but to have their actual names recorded on their gravestones/memorials. However I cannot find any reference or connection to this date.  I did find out that the details for the Tynemouth Memorial were complied by asking people to check a list and add their loved ones names to the list via the Shields Daily News.  I guess there would be lots of opportunity for human error and maybe Vincent's name got mixed up with someone else's details.  There is no Francis Spence on the memorial list, obviously because he didn't die.  I think perhaps Vincent's date of 1 Aug 1917 just got put against the wrong name  :'(.
3) Finally, I still cant think why Vincent's sisters didn't print any memorial to him in the paper as they had done for John George.  I suppose someone must have added his name to the Tynemouth list via the newspaper request, as he isn't printed in the paper.  I am hopeful it's just that the newspaper may not have been digitised.  May be one day I will find something.  Seems a shame as they were clearly happy to accept his pay and medals.
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline Tickettyboo

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,834
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #578 on: Friday 05 June 20 00:15 BST (UK) »
Okay this is turning out to be an interesting day....

Now Ancestry turns up Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence who died 1 Aug 1917... with Georgina claiming for him.   



That information was provided in this thread by Jomot on 13th Feb 2019 (see page 35 of this thread , reply no 307)

Boo


Offline JenB

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,871
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #579 on: Friday 05 June 20 09:01 BST (UK) »
Okay this is turning out to be an interesting day....

Now Ancestry turns up Army Register of Soldiers Effects for Frank Spence who died 1 Aug 1917... with Georgina claiming for him.   

That information was provided in this thread by Jomot on 13th Feb 2019 (see page 35 of this thread , reply no 307)


It was this very document which mentioned an Elizabeth Moralee whose story I (hopefully) unravelled in this post last December!
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793871.msg6856304#msg6856304

paragraph 4 of this posting refers to Frank Spence's military papers.
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Love&Leaves

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #580 on: Friday 05 June 20 13:16 BST (UK) »
Apologies Jen and Boo - I did not mean to suggest that this was new information, just that the document, which I hadn't seen before, is now available on Ancestry.  The document was referenced as you point out but I had only just seen the actual paperwork - it came up as a hint on my tree. 

As I began my posts - I have been revisiting a lot of information.  There is so much and some had not really sunk in at the time, it was coming thick and fast.  I don't think I had really taken on board that there was so much evidence to confirm it was my Vincent who died on 1 Aug 1917.  Also, I've always had the Tynemouth Memorial date of 24 Sep 1916 in my mind for Vincent.

My new research was on the actual Frank Spence and what became of him.  I had never seen or heard of his service record before.

Hope you are all keeping safe and well x
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline JenB

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,871
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #581 on: Friday 05 June 20 18:59 BST (UK) »
the document, which I hadn't seen before, is now available on Ancestry.  The document was referenced as you point out but I had only just seen the actual paperwork - it came up as a hint on my tree. 

Strange - we were all looking at the original on Ancestry at the beginning of last year! In fact the database it's on was put on Ancestry in 2015.

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Love&Leaves

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #582 on: Friday 05 June 20 21:25 BST (UK) »
Apologies again Jen - to be clear "the document, which I hadn't seen before, is now available on my Ancestry Tree".  It just came up as a hint.  I hadn't looked for the original at the beginning of last year, I had just taken the information from this thread as back up for what was on the service record, which of course I had seen. 

Also, I'm sure Ancestry holds back documents sometimes - I have had many experiences where I know the exact details, i.e. Page No and Volume for Birth or Death and it doesn't not come up on Ancestry but when I make the exact same search on FindMyPast, there it is!
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,481
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #583 on: Saturday 24 July 21 11:31 BST (UK) »
https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/50393594873/in/photolist-2jM7m52-2hwjYCH

I am just letting people know that another Battista photo has come out on the Illustrated Chronicle online.
I am sure Sophie or someone will know his relationship.

This thread has been quiet for a while but I am sure we will not be giving up and that things might be solved re Giovanni eventually ..  :)

Added: Actually, he is most likely (Antonio) the son of Vincenzo, bloodline ancestor I think of Sophie and the nephew of Giovanni.
Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Watson, Miller, Davis/Davies, Brown, Senior, Dodds, Grieveson, Gamesby, Simpson, Rose, Gilboy, Malloy, Dalton, Young, Saint, Anderson, Allen, McKetterick, McCabe, Drummond, Parkinson, Armstrong, McCarroll, Innes, Marshall, Atkinson, Glendinning, Fenwick, Bonner

Offline Love&Leaves

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #584 on: Sunday 25 July 21 09:05 BST (UK) »
Thanks so much RTL for finding/sharing this - absolutely correct, he is my Great Grandad Antonio (Tony).  The picture is just fantastic as it shows his injury he sustained at the front line.  We have a letter he wrote to his best friend giving an account of his tour and receiving this injury, written the same month as the photo was taken and printed in the Chronicle.  The letter is on Antonio's profile on the NEWMP website :)

http://www.newmp.org.uk/article.php?categoryid=99&articleid=1627&displayorder=139

I am definitely not giving up on Giovanni's story.. new info will come to light, such as this photo has, I am certain.  I have high hopes for the 1922 census if nothing else!


Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink