Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Firstly, Boo - thank you so much for letting me know that you are willing to look up the marriage.    :DThere is no rush.  Whenever you can do this will be fantastic.  I am intrigued as to what became of Lily's Francis.  This might be him.

Hi battista,
 
I hope Giovanni did go back to Italy because then this might make things a little easier in the long run and one day you may have your answer when things are digitized further down the line.  I suppose he might have gone to Italy to find work and then hopefully return with his family.

This might be the case.

However, when I am trying to solve difficult family history puzzles such as this I try my best to put myself in the shoes of the people involved.  Sometimes this has helped me when I have been researching.  Although, your scenario might be the right one .. I do wonder why in the circumstances the Battista children went into the workhouse.  From what I have learned about the Tynemouth workhouse I think this was one of the better ones but I don't think people stayed there for too long if they could help it.  If he went to Italy I think the family could have stayed together - perhaps Anastasia or one of the older girls could have looked after the children and then whoever else was able might have gone out to work.  Domestic work and mining seems to have been quite widely available.  Weren't some of the boys re-baptized before going into the workhouse.  Perhaps this might have been because the Whelan side wanted to make sure they were safe in a sense spiritually in case anything happened in the future.  Sometimes as we all know people died in the workhouse because they did not have the constitution to withstand the limited diet and hard work.

Wasn't Anastasia a rate payer?  This suggests to me that she may not have been too badly off.  I once came across a thank you notice in a newspaper following a funeral of a relation which appears to have been put in by one of the Whelan girls.  In my experience, I don't tend to find evidence of very poor people putting thank you notices in the newspapers.  It is little things like this which make me think that the Whelans may not have been too badly off and all pulling together I don't quite understand why most of the children went in to the workhouse.  I hope I don't sound like I am coming across in a judgmental way, as I certainly don't mean things like that.  It is just I am puzzled at why they seem to have gone their separate ways and quite quickly following on from Henry Leo's death at which Giovanni appears to have been present. 

I think psychologically this must all have been very hard experience for the children following on from their Mother's death.  Getting a step-mother/new family, going into the workhouse and likely being split up based on sex and age then having siblings go separate ways - Wellesley etc.  They were certainly dealt a bad hand in life at the start.

I do tend to think something drastic must have happened prior to the workhouse.  However, I do hope I am wrong and that Giovanni might have gone back to Italy. 

The death notice with no mention of public mention of Anastasia as Giovanni's wife is also an interesting point.  I do wonder if there might be a grave stone for Anastasia in All Saints Cemetery in Newcastle.  I know she is buried in section B and is in the same grave as her daughter Anastasia.  battista, when you were making enquiries a long while back did you ever find out if she might have a grave stone?  If so, I wonder if there might be any reference to Giovanni on there?

[battista]

I think he did die shortly after he was last seen, if not, I guess the only other likely thing is going under an alias. If he did go under an alias, I think it'll be very unlikely we'll ever track that down.

Could've gone back to visit his family in Italy, died on the way, there or on the way back perhaps. When those records have all been digitized, I guess we might find out.

"I have looked in the records for Anastasia Battista and can confirm she is buried in B UNCON-1041 at All Saints cemetery, however there is no headstone on the grave." - Bereavement Services, Newcastle

[c-side]

Going back to the 'missing' marriages - I shall ask them again on Wednesday, get them to check more thoroughly.

I also have a distant cousin who does these marriage searches - I shall ask her what happens if the church records are not available (I'm curious now). It could turn out that it is one she did as she heads up here about twice a year to do them!

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks, battista for letting me know that there is no grave stone.  If there was I would have popped along at some point as this cemetery is on my bus route to and from work.

I still think it might be possible one day to discover what became of Giovanni although this is not proving easy at all.  Hopefully, he might emerge in the updated digitized records one day.  Or he might even be discovered in the burial records over here - possibly under a different name.  There might be some clues which might be able to identify him.  After all, when 'Frank Victor Spence' died there have been clues which show something is not right.  If he was really the brother-in-law of Georgina, he could not be attributed with the family members of the Battistas.  If he was really Vincent then why does he have a different name?  It almost goes without saying it is impossible for two men to morph into one. 

Sometimes, when I am looking at burial records especially Elswick I sometimes come across an entry for an unidentified body which has been found.  Although, hopefully Giovanni won't have been one of these unidentified ones.  You would think if he just went missing someone in the family might have reported it to the police and if the latter thought that one of the unidentified bodies might have been him a family member might have been asked to come and identify it. 

This is all very puzzling what happened to Giovanni but I think there is still hope.

That would be good in you could ask about the records Christine.  I am curious too as to what may have happened to them.  It was disappointing to find the other day that the marriages at Tyne and Wear Archives for St Augustine only go up to 1901 whereas on the Marriage Locator website the June quarter for 1910 is represented so someone must have got their hands on them at some point.

I have just been thinking Boo, on the link you have provided Ann's Father is mentioned as Henry Fenton but there doesn't seem to be a mention of the groom's father.  I hope it turns out that Francis named a Father on the marriage.  I hope we will not get thwarted again in trying to find out who this man was.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/illustratedchronicleww1/21265796373/in/photolist-ypbLnB

It might be coincidence, that there were two people called 'Francis Spence' who were in the North Shields area at one point and who were both miners - the mining industry was huge in this area at the time - but it will be good if things can be established one way or the other.

[Tickettyboo]

I have just been thinking Boo, on the link you have provided Ann's Father is mentioned as Henry Fenton but there doesn't seem to be a mention of the groom's father.  I hope it turns out that Francis named a Father on the marriage.  I hope we will not get thwarted again in trying to find out who this man was.

This link? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPHF-FBPR

It says that his Dad was Francis Spence, its separated into  two panels, one for her details and one for his.

Boo

[River Tyne Lass]

Really Boo?!!

You are good at this FamilySearch stuff - I must be doing something wrong as I can't seem to get to two panels.  I do believe you though.  This is very exciting news.  Surely, this has got to be him.  It will be great to hear if he is also a mariner.  If so, I think we might have our man.  I am not too bothered about age as I have reasons to believe that Francis made his age younger when he married Lily in 1905.  Ages seem to have been very flexible in those days.  I just wish I could see a signature as well to compare to the 1905 marriage.  Even so, if it turns out his Father is Francis Spence and a mariner - surely this would just be too much of a co-incidence.  No hurry Boo,  but I am looking forward to hearing from you further on this after you have got to the Family History Centre in the next few weeks.

"Watch out, Francis Spence! you can run but you can't hide!"   

[River Tyne Lass]

Apologies Boo!  I have found it just by clicking on Francis' name.  His Father is indeed Francis according to this record. 

Bear with me on all this .. I can be a bit hopeless at times...I had better not give up my day job ..

[c-side]

I should have pushed them harder at Woodhorn last week - the marriage records ARE there!  It wasn't my cousin who did that marriage challenge but she knew who did and word has just come back.

Sorry for the delay folks but I should have an answer next week.

Christine

[River Tyne Lass]

This is very kind of you both - Boo and Christine - that each of you are willing to look up the marriage when time permits.  I am grateful to you BOTH for this kindness regardless of who manages to do this look up.  If possible it would be good to have a comparison of signature to 1905 marriage.

And to think just a few days ago it was looking like this marriage had gone missing!!