Author Topic: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]  (Read 72580 times)

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #477 on: Thursday 18 April 19 23:37 BST (UK) »
Just checked and definitely the right church St Cutherberts Bedford Street North Shields. There is just a line through father!!?? Cannot understand. James’s adresss is also different to Dorothy’s yet I know they lived together.  ??? ???


Was just looking through my gallery on my Ancestry tree and I have the church record for the marriage from St Cuthberts, which RTL sourced and added much earlier on the thread... this record does give the same address for James and Dorothy.  Both noted as living at 35 Duke Street, North Shields.
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #478 on: Monday 25 November 19 22:37 GMT (UK) »
Thread has been quiet for a while but I have found some new information regarding James.... I ordered the marriage certificate for he and Lily Macauley... attached below.  Interesting eh?!?  How on earth did he get away with all these alias's and the bigamy charge  ??? :o ??? :o

Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline elliesboys

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #479 on: Tuesday 26 November 19 11:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi Sophie,
Lovely to hear from you.
I cannot really make it all out but what i can see is very interesting. No wonder my Grandad wouldnt talk about it  :) :) :) :)

Offline JenB

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #480 on: Tuesday 26 November 19 11:17 GMT (UK) »
I see that he stated he was a bachelor. But when charged with bigamy in 1937 he'd said that he'd been 'told' his first wife was dead.

Northern Mail - Wednesday 20th October 1937

'Didn't Know Wife Was Alive
Newcastle Man Acquitted on Bigamy Charges
James Battista, 41 year old labourer, of Westmorland Road, Newcastle upon Tyne, who went through a form of marriage with a 17 year old girl while his wife was alive, was found not guilty of bigamy at Newcastle yesterday.
Mr Justice Atkinson instructing the jury to return a 'Not guilty' verdict said there was no evidence to show that Battista knew his wife was living when he 'married' for the second time.
Battista said he had been told in 1927 that his wife was dead, but had not made any further enquiries.'

Just to add - I believe that James' first wife reverted to her maiden name and that she died as Dorothy Playford on 10 September 1950 and was buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields on 13 September 1950.
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Offline elliesboys

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #481 on: Tuesday 26 November 19 11:29 GMT (UK) »
Its unbelievable the lies he must have told. Yes your right my Great Granmother did go back to her maiden name. My Dad was only 7 months when she died. We found her grave and have been told she was buried with another lady surname Gibson. We were told it was most probably a pauper grave. :-[ :-[

Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #482 on: Tuesday 26 November 19 12:17 GMT (UK) »
Yes Jen - that proves that the investigation was less than thorough! Surely if he had thought his wife dead since 1927 he would have put widower on the marriage register in 1932? Or was it different for men?  And I wonder what brought the case to light, 5 years later???  Interestingly, Dorothy Playford notes herself as a Widow on the 1939 census...
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline JenB

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #483 on: Tuesday 26 November 19 12:30 GMT (UK) »
Economical with the truth  ;D
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Offline Love&Leaves

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #484 on: Tuesday 26 November 19 18:02 GMT (UK) »
Definitely!  :o
Walton, Battista, Moss, Maybury, Armstrong, Walker, Greenup, Norman, Holliday, Steele, Palmer, Graham, Sieverdink

Offline River Tyne Lass

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Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« Reply #485 on: Wednesday 27 November 19 09:58 GMT (UK) »
I think James' behaviour would no doubt have hurt, upset and exasperated a number of people in his life along the way.  However, I can't help feeling a great deal of sympathy for him.  I think he comes across as a very emotionally damaged person.  From being a tiny child, he had so many awful experiences.  His Mother and baby brother falling sick and dying, having to adjust to another 'Mother' and family moving in, losing his Father and second family and then having to adapt to workhouse life/separation from siblings, regimented life on Wellesley, the Great War and loss of brothers, etc.  I think he might have been separated from his sisters in the workhouse too for a good part of the time ( he might have had a sense of them being substitute Mother figures as young as they were so this would likely have been quite frightening to him).  I think because James ended up spending so many years in the workhouse he probably had a sense of this as his home.  Albeit a home that only offered the basics and one which kept trying to get him out based on what those that were running things thought was best for him.  I doubt he would have had much say, about whether he actually wanted to go to the Wellesley or the other places he was sent to.  I don't think it would have done his self esteem much good either to have been told he had been 'deserted'.  However, we don't know whether this was true.  Something may have happened to Giovanni.  I know from reading the minutes volumes that deserters were sometimes tracked down and made to contribute.   I think it might have been assumed that Giovanni had wilfully deserted because they could not find him or a record of his death. 

I am sure that people at the workhouse and other places probably did their best but I can't help feeling that he would have been an extremely traumatised child through death, separation, and everything else that might have left him feeling adrift and disconnected.  I am not surprised he had difficulties with commitments and attachments due to his own early insecurity. 

Also, I am not surprised that he appears to have stayed with Lily the longest.  Perhaps as she was a much younger partner she might have seemed more vulnerable to him and at some level perhaps he might have identified with this and therefore was able to empathise more with her than with previous partners.

I do hope James eventually became more settled in himself and went on to have a happier ending.  I daresay, if I had been one of his earlier partners or children I would have felt quite mad at him for being unsupportive.  However, at a distance, watching his life unfold through records I have found his story to have been a most heartbreaking one.

I think the next youngest , William Armstrong, must have also suffered much too.  However, thankfully for him it seems that when he got into trouble later on in life someone was astute enough to recognise that he needed proper help and not just punishment.

So much intrigue on this highly fascinating thread!  We started off looking for Giovanni but so many other mysteries have also arisen regarding James, Vincent, Elizabeth Moralee and son John and Frank Spence.  What with all these alias names and disappearances/going undercover, I think there is so much more behind 'scenes' in this story.   I do hope eventually we can get to the bottom of it all!
Dare I say it, who needs Agatha Christie, when you have the Battistas!  ;)
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