Author Topic: A basic question about Lanark OPR's  (Read 855 times)

Offline familysleuth

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A basic question about Lanark OPR's
« on: Friday 25 May 18 10:01 BST (UK) »
this is such a basic question, I feel embarrassed to ask it!  ??? But here it is - is there a key to what church the baptism or marriage occurred in? I have found that there are a couple of churches in the town of Lanark where Isobel Barr - OPR Birth 648/00 0060 0208 - could have been baptised in. her birth date was 31/05/1833.  thanks for any help!
Joyce & Black in Armagh/Down; Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

Offline goldie61

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Re: A basic question about Lanark OPR's
« Reply #1 on: Friday 25 May 18 11:28 BST (UK) »
Interestingly the film of the OPR for Lanark on familysearch doesn't give the name of the church. Just "Old OPR for Lanark. Church of Scotland"
Its number is 1066596. You should be able to view it on line (not sure whether this is only at a family history library or not - my computer is on a go-slow so can't look at it, but it's definitely viewable), and your Isobel Barr is certainly on it. Parents John Barr and Martha Paton. Born 21st May, christened 31st June 1833.

There seems to be two contenders for churches in Lanark - Greyfriars and St Nicholas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nicholas_Parish_Church,_Lanark
St Nicholas  is 'Church of Scotland'
https://www.lanarkgreyfriars.com/we-are-greyfriars/our-history/greyfriars-history
Greyfriars would seem to be Presbyterian.

I suspect the Church of Scotland would be the OPRs, but I leave that to somebody more knowledgeable then me with regards to Scottish religious denominations.

Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline familysleuth

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Re: A basic question about Lanark OPR's
« Reply #2 on: Friday 25 May 18 11:46 BST (UK) »
Thanks Goldie - yes, I have the record, and only nonconformist churches have the name of the actual church. there is another contender, the oldest Church -  "St Kentigern's Church is a ruined category B listed building in Lanark, South Lanarkshire. It was previously the parish church of the town." we don't know when it became a ruin....I have looked everywhere on Scotlands People and they don't mention how to find the exact church - thanks for answering!
Joyce & Black in Armagh/Down; Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: A basic question about Lanark OPR's
« Reply #3 on: Friday 25 May 18 13:50 BST (UK) »
The Church of Scotland is presbyterian. 'Presbyterian' and 'Church of Scotland' are not mutually exclusive. Presbyterianism is not a set of beliefs, but a system of church organisation, which involves tiers of committees, as opposed to tiers of bishops as in the RC and episcopalian churches. There are and were umpteen different presbyterian denominations in Scotland.

Three kirks have been mentioned in this thread.

St Kentigern's was the ancient parish kirk of Lanark. It was abandoned in the 18th century and in ruins by 1834. See https://canmore.org.uk/site/46576/lanark-hyndford-road-st-kentigerns-church

St Nicholas' was built in 1774 to replace St Kentigern's, and is still in use. See https://canmore.org.uk/site/46586/lanark-high-street-st-nicholas-church

The account of Lanark in the New Statistical Account states specifically, 'There is no chapel of ease attached to the Established Church, although one is much needed, especially at New Lanark'. See http://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/viewer/nsa-vol6-Parish_record_for_Lanark_in_the_county_of_Lanark_in_volume_6_of_account_2/ (page 26).

The 'Established Church' in this context is the Church of Scotland.

Chapels of ease were built when the population of a parish became too large for the capacity of the parish kirk, or when a new town or village grew up which was distant from the parish kirk. The statement that there was no chapel of ease attached to the Church of Scotland parish kirk means that there was only the one Church of Scotland in the parish of Lanark in 1845, and by implication in 1833. Therefore you can be confident that your baptism record was written down by the clerk of St Nicholas' Church.

The item on Greyfriars Church posted by goldie61 makes it clear that the history of churches in Lanark is not quite so simple, with a whole raft of churches set up and later closed or amalgamated with one another, almost all of them later than 1833. (It also contradicts the NSA by saying, 'Looking back slightly to 1840, St. Leonards Church was opened as an extension church to the Parish Church', but that is still after your 1833 baptism. I'm inclined to believe the minister who was writing in 1845, rather than someone writing 150 years later, but fortunately it doesn't affect your question!)

However, it is important to understand that it was the exception rather than the rule for weddings to be held in the kirk building. The traditional place for a wedding ceremony was in the bride's home. If she had no parents, or was marrying a long way from home, the ceremony might be held in her employer's house, or in the manse. Only towards the end of the 20th century did it become popular to marry in a hall, restaurant or hotel, and kirk weddings did not become the norm until the beginning of the 20th century.

Likewise baptisms were often conducted in the parents' or grandparents' home. Unless a record states specifically that a child was baptised before the congregation, or that the baptism was witnessed by the congregation, you cannot assume that the ceremony took place in the kirk. (I myself was baptised in the best room of my parents' house, so home baptism still occurred well into the 20th century.)

Also you have to bear in mind that in theory the Church of Scotland was supposed to record all baptisms and marriages, not only those of its own adherents, and sometimes it even actually managed to do so.

To summarise, (a) SP doesn't need to state which kirk the OPR refers to, because by definition it's the parish kirk and (b) you cannot assume that a wedding or baptism recorded in an OPR was conducted in the parish kirk, or indeed in any kirk.



Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline familysleuth

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Re: A basic question about Lanark OPR's
« Reply #4 on: Friday 25 May 18 16:06 BST (UK) »
thank you so much - a wealth of information for me, and a big help understanding my ancestors lives. I only wish that somewhere on Scotlands people this information existed! - although you have put it so well, I'm glad I posted!  best wishes, Louise
Joyce & Black in Armagh/Down; Clarkson in Hull, East Riding; Paxton in Hull, Yorkshire; Lodge in Huddersfield and Liverpool; Shaw in Caistor, Lincolnshire; Noncon and Pope in London.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: A basic question about Lanark OPR's
« Reply #5 on: Friday 25 May 18 16:44 BST (UK) »
Glad it is useful.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.