Mystery Woman from Essex

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Hi all, I wasn't sure where to pose my question so thought I would start here.  My great grandmother is a complete mystery and I can not work out who she is.  It seems prior to her marriage to Jesse Dolton in Dec 1893 she doesn't exist.  According to her marriage he name is Florence Olivia Ringer and it gives her fathers name as James.  On the 1939 cencus when she's now widowed it gives a birth date for her as 16th of December 1871.  In 1901 after her marriage to Jesse it says she was born in Plaistow Essex, in 1911 it says she was born in West Ham.

I've searched high and low but nothing I find comes close ... I can't find her on any other cencus prior to 1901.

I could use some fresh eyes or ideas.

Blessings
Deb

[Kay99]

Hello Deb

Does the marriage cert list her father's occupation and witnesses names??

Kay

[solidrock]

Have you got the right marriage?
Florence Olivia Ringer  m  Thomas Gray  D 1893, West Ham.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DNK-N7V

Here's the other one...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XK84-NL3

[philipsearching]

According to her marriage he name is Florence Olivia Ringer and it gives her fathers name as James.

Two questions:
Does the marriage certificate give an occupation for James?
Who were the witnesses?

Given that Plaistow is in the West Ham registration district I thought I would have a look for any RINGER and any Olivia there.  Accidentally, I clicked 'all types' instead of 'births' and saw:
Marriage Dec qtr 1873 West Ham vol 4a p51 - Olivia RINGER - same page as Keziah TANDY, Arthur SMITH and James WOLNER).  A quick search of the GRO birth index showed baptisms for SMITH mmn RINGER in West Ham in the later 1870s, so it seems Olivia RINGER probably married Arthur SMITH.

On FreeBMD there is a birth :
RINGER Flora Lavinia, Mar qtr 1872 West Ham vol 4a p30 (I couldn't see this on the GRO to check the mother's maiden name)

Is it possible that Flora Lavinia RINGER decided to change her name to Florence Olivia?
Could the Olivia RINGER who married in 1873 be related?

No definite answers yet, but it might provide fresh lines to check.

Philip

ADDED - on FreeBMD there are RINGER births in Guiltcross, Norfolk for an Olivia, a Lavinia and several James in the 1850s- so if the Lavinia idea works out, this could be a potential lead

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Hello Deb

Does the marriage cert list her father's occupation and witnesses names??

Kay

Hi Kay
Sadly it's just a transcript and it doesn't list the occupations. It just has a film number so I haven't been able to go any further with that one.

Thanks
Deb

[Deb Clark Rennie]

According to her marriage he name is Florence Olivia Ringer and it gives her fathers name as James.

Two questions:
Does the marriage certificate give an occupation for James?
Who were the witnesses?

Given that Plaistow is in the West Ham registration district I thought I would have a look for any RINGER and any Olivia there.  Accidentally, I clicked 'all types' instead of 'births' and saw:
Marriage Dec qtr 1873 West Ham vol 4a p51 - Olivia RINGER - same page as Keziah TANDY, Arthur SMITH and James WOLNER).  A quick search of the GRO birth index showed baptisms for SMITH mmn RINGER in West Ham in the later 1870s, so it seems Olivia RINGER probably married Arthur SMITH.

On FreeBMD there is a birth :
RINGER Flora Lavinia, Mar qtr 1872 West Ham vol 4a p30 (I couldn't see this on the GRO to check the mother's maiden name)

Is it possible that Flora Lavinia RINGER decided to change her name to Florence Olivia?
Could the Olivia RINGER who married in 1873 be related?

No definite answers yet, but it might provide fresh lines to check.

Philip

ADDED - on FreeBMD there are RINGER births in Guiltcross, Norfolk for an Olivia, a Lavinia and several James in the 1850s- so if the Lavinia idea works out, this could be a potential lead

Hmm that's interesting actually I think I came across flora Lavinia once before I must look into that again.  And that's very interesting on the Olivia Ringer ... I suppose it's possible Florence Olivia Ringer was illegitimate? Although she names her father as James Ringer ... but she wouldn't be the first to lie about who her father was?

I'm in touch with a couple of others that are great grandchildren ... one from Jesse's first wife and two via Olivia.  My grandmother and mother both inherited a severe (as did I and all my children) form of bleeding disorder and via the DNA we've traced it back to Olivia who ever she is.

I will check into the smith family ... I will keep an eye for DNA matches to this family too.

Thank you for the tips - we seem to have way too many skeletons in our family :-)
Deb

[Deb Clark Rennie]

Have you got the right marriage?
Florence Olivia Ringer  m  Thomas Gray  D 1893, West Ham.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DNK-N7V

Here's the other one...

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XK84-NL3

I did see that one but I think it's an error he married Emily Carter so I do believe I have the right marriage as she is Florence Olivia Dolton after this date

Thank you
Deb

[Deb Clark Rennie]

According to her marriage he name is Florence Olivia Ringer and it gives her fathers name as James.

Two questions:
Does the marriage certificate give an occupation for James?
Who were the witnesses?

Given that Plaistow is in the West Ham registration district I thought I would have a look for any RINGER and any Olivia there.  Accidentally, I clicked 'all types' instead of 'births' and saw:
Marriage Dec qtr 1873 West Ham vol 4a p51 - Olivia RINGER - same page as Keziah TANDY, Arthur SMITH and James WOLNER).  A quick search of the GRO birth index showed baptisms for SMITH mmn RINGER in West Ham in the later 1870s, so it seems Olivia RINGER probably married Arthur SMITH.

On FreeBMD there is a birth :
RINGER Flora Lavinia, Mar qtr 1872 West Ham vol 4a p30 (I couldn't see this on the GRO to check the mother's maiden name)

Is it possible that Flora Lavinia RINGER decided to change her name to Florence Olivia?
Could the Olivia RINGER who married in 1873 be related?

No definite answers yet, but it might provide fresh lines to check.

Philip

ADDED - on FreeBMD there are RINGER births in Guiltcross, Norfolk for an Olivia, a Lavinia and several James in the 1850s- so if the Lavinia idea works out, this could be a potential lead

Hmm that's interesting actually I think I came across flora Lavinia once before I must look into that again.  And that's very interesting on the Olivia Ringer ... I suppose it's possible Florence Olivia Ringer was illegitimate? Although she names her father as James Ringer ... but she wouldn't be the first to lie about who her father was?

I'm in touch with a couple of others that are great grandchildren ... one from Jesse's first wife and two via Olivia.  My grandmother and mother both inherited a severe (as did I and all my children) form of bleeding disorder and via the DNA we've traced it back to Olivia who ever she is.

I will check into the smith family ... I will keep an eye for DNA matches to this family too.

Thank you for the tips - we seem to have way too many skeletons in our family :-)
Deb

I will order the birth certificate for Flora Lavinia - I also noted the Olivia Ringer your found in Norfolk her mother's name is Lavinia and I then found Olivia working as a servant in 1871 in Middlesex ... so perhaps she got herself into a spot of trouble.   Hopefully if the birth of Flora Lavinia will give the mother's name at least ...

[jonw65]

Does the marriage cert list her father's occupation and witnesses names??

Image is there
25 Dec 1893
Jesse Dolton, 32, Widower, Bootmaker, 24 Avenons Road, father John Dolton (deceased), Labourer
+
Florence Olivia Ringer, 22, Spinster, 22 Florence St., father James Ringer, Postmaster
both signed
wit John Griffiths, Sarah Griffiths(X)