Author Topic: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1  (Read 1011 times)

Offline MacGrigor

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Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« on: Tuesday 29 May 18 23:47 BST (UK) »
Hello,

I've come across a bit of a snag.

My great-granddad served with three Middlesex battalions: the 18th, the 3/10th and the 4th. No direct transfer could be found. One member on here (using war diaries I think) said that the 3/10th was broken up on the 1st of February 1918, and that the 4th Battalion received 227 ORs (don't know what that stands for) on the 12th. However, various websites state that the 3/10th was disbanded on the 20th of February. Which is right? Was it being disbanded before the 20th which could still mean my great-grandad transferred on the 12th?

I'd appreciate any help!

Adam
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

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Offline philipsearching

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 00:18 BST (UK) »
the 4th Battalion received 227 ORs (don't know what that stands for) on the 12th.

No idea about the disbanding, but I would suggest ORs stands for Other Ranks (i.e, not officers)

Philip
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Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 00:47 BST (UK) »
Yes, that would make sense - and support the theory of a transfer of regular men, including my great-granddad, to the 4th from the 3/10th. Thanks!

However, it all hinges on the actual date the battalion was broken up. It may have been breaking up prior to the 20th, which was what the RootsChat member may have meant.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline MaxD

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 09:48 BST (UK) »
Adam

It isn't as easy as that!  While it had been decided that the battalion should be disbanded, in fact  the plan was changed and on 20 February 1918 it was decided that the 3/10th Middlesex "should not be broken up but made into an Entrenching Battalion so accordingly on this date we became the 11th Entrenching Battalion under the orders of CE (Chief Engineer) 3rd Army and 17 Corps" - quote from the war diary. The diary doesn't mention movement of men in January or February so it is likely that he moved on after 20 February.

Howwever, I have the feeling that we should look at the sequence of units you have adduced for your ggrandfather.  You don't have the service record (that would show the dates) so to check the basics, could you give his number and name (I didn't see your related thread.)

MaxD
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Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 11:01 BST (UK) »
He was Lance Corporal Alexander G. McGregor, service number PW/5040. The related thread is here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=775695.0
The member found his three battalions. These were the 18th (1st Public Works) Battalion, and then two fighting battalions, the 3/10th and the 4th.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline MaxD

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 13:22 BST (UK) »
I'd forgotten I had contributed a little to the other thread.

Jim1 is absolutely correct (he always is) with the sequence of battalions.  However, what none of us can say is when he transferred from one battalion to another.  The only sure dates are:

He went to France after the start of 1916 (his medals do not include the 1914 or 1914-1915 Star which means no overseas service before end 1915).

He can only have been in 3/10th between 1 Jun 1917 and 20 Feb 1918 (its dates in France) although he may have stayed on in 11th Entrenching Battalion for an indeterminate time if he was there at the end before being posted to the 4th Battalion (a draft of 47 men from somewhere joined the 4th on 24 March - could he have been one of them, perfectly possible).

jim1 has already looked at war diaries to see if there are entries in the 18th that show men going to 3/10th and found no evidence.  He has also looked at the 4th and has found men arriving on Feb 12th 1918.  I would venture to suggest these were not from 3/10th who themselves received a draft of 300 men on 8 February from 11 Battalion which was broken up in that month, they are more likely to have been from 11th also.

The situation really is that, without his service record, one can only say that your ggrandfather served in the 3 battalions in the order jim1 found for you in the medal roll but with no idea when (apart from not being able to be in 3/10th before 1 Jun 1917 or after 20 Feb 1918).

If you felt like cross checking yourself, each diary is downloadable for 3.50 from the National Archives or you can see them on Ancestry if you get the sub we've been recommending.  Be aware though, as jim1 has said already, individual soldiers are rarely named in war diaries, the best to be hoped for would be an entry that say "x men to 3/10th" or "x men from 3/10th" but even then was he one of them - who knows?

MaxD

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353815 - 18th battalion
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352155 - 3/10th
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354085 - 4th


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Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 13:56 BST (UK) »
Thanks for all of that MaxD. That's very helpful.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart

Offline jim1

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 14:05 BST (UK) »
My knowledge of Entrenching Battalions is limited to what I've read which is that they seem to have been quite short lived, the German Spring Offensive being the main reason.
By this time Brigades had been reduced from 4 Battalions to 3 which brought about the formation of the EB's in early 1918.
Weaknesses in the Army structure became apparent during the offensive & men from the EB's were quickly transferred to front line Battalions such as the 4/Mddx.
It's quite possible there was a short stint in the 11/EB that's gone unrecorded before going into the 4/Mddx. but as MaxD points out without a service record it's all guesswork educated or otherwise.
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Offline MacGrigor

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Re: Disbanding of 3/10th Battalion, Middlesex Regiment, WW1
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 30 May 18 15:13 BST (UK) »
Yes, I realise that. Thanks anyway jim1, you've given me plenty of information.
Lipman family of Aldgate - ends with Lewis Lipman (d. 1871, Bethnal Green), son of John Lipman 'late of Glasgow' (1856)
McGregor family of Fodderty - ends with Alexander McGregor (b. 1765, Fodderty), son of Murdoch McGregor and Kate Stewart