Irish Gypsy Help

[Val17]

Hi,
My parents divorced when I was 10 years old and basically we lost contact with our dads side of the family. We were told we were Irish gypsies, but I cannot find any evidence of that. Dad told me a story of a campsite on a Saturday night when all the clothes and bedding would be thrown into a big pot over a fire to kill fleas etc. A location was somewhere beginning with an H. My sister was told if she ever wanted to trace her ancestors she would need to contact the Gypsy Council. My brother remembers dad saying his first memory was in County Clare in Ireland.
After a lot of research we have found out our grandmother was Ellen Farnell born 1893 in Cannock, her mother was Annie. She has a daughter Martha in 1909. In 1914 she marries Richard Johnson there are two entries one in Manchester then in a church in Liverpool. She refers to her mother as Annie Farnell and her father Thomas Farnell; I cant find them. We understand from the later divorce papers that there were four children of the marriage only one Elizabeth Ann Johnson surviving. The father got custody of her and he was living in Wigan at the time. We have recently found out that another child Annie Johnson was born in 1923. Dad was born in 1924 his birth certificate  has no father but his mother has her name as Ellen McKelvie also known as Johnson formally Farnell. A James McKelvie is mentioned in the divorce papers. As I have no other details about him I cannot find out anything about him. Ellen then gets Married in Liverpool to Patrick Collins born about 1886. He is widowed and I suspect there are probably children of his former marriage but again I cant find any details. There are six children born of this marriage only two John and Lawrence Collins surviving. I have been unable to make contact with anyone on dads side to ask them any questions.  Ellen died in 1958, her daughter Martha died in 1998 as did Martha's daughter Eileen.
Does anyone have any idea about who if anyone has the gypsy connection as although I cannot find anything I think there is usually some truth in things that are said in the past.
Sorry if I'm rambling on. anyone have any advise of how I can find out?

[rosie99]

Welcome to rootschat

The birth registration for Ellen seems to indicate that Ellen was illegitimate as no mothers maiden name listed
FARNELL, ELLEN       MMN -     
1893  June Quarter in CANNOCK  Volume 06B  Page 581   

Does the name of her father come from her marriage certificate

[Val17]

Hi Rosie,
Thanks for the welcome reply
Yes the fathers name does come form the marriage certificate. It has been suggested to me that sometimes people would make up a name of a father. I did find an Ellen Farnell in 1871 census at the Horse and Jockey pub in Penkridge with a daughter Annie and described as unmarried. She has a son William born that year and a lodger William Brookes who she marries later that same year.
Its the same area as Cannock. Then Annie in 1893 giving birth to Ellen in the workhouse in Cannock.
  There seems to be a lot of people living in the Horse and Jockey.

[jim1]

She appears in 1881 not 71:
Ellen Farnell 34 unm. b. Crateford Staffs.
Annie Farnell 8
William H. Farnell 0
William Brookes 48 lodger
Piece: 2780; Folio: 27; Page: 4
In 1891 Annie is in the County Industrial Home.
http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/StaffordIH/

[iluleah]

Hi and welcome to rootschat

Instead of researching family stories, I would suggest you research the individuals and the records each and every person generates during their lifetime... whoever they turn out to be there are census returns, so someone born in 1893, will be on the census in 1901 and 1911, either with their family or another family, if you know where they were born then which local church did they use to baptise/marry in, each record will give you additional information and that builds up the picture of their life.

In so far as the family stories, write them down, who told you and on what date and do that each time the story is told to you by the same person or someone else.... you will find if you do the story changes and that also tells you about your ancestry and the verbal history they pass on...some might have some truth, some are pure fantasy however it is your families verbal history and all part of them/you

[jim1]

you may want to keep this family on the back burner:
1861:Penkridge Staffs.
Henry Farnell 56 b. Crateford March Staffs. Farmer (out of business).
Ann Farnell 50
Henry Farnell 25
John Farnell 16
Ellen Farnell 13
Rose Farnell 6
James Bishop 7
looks like Annie's mother & Grandparents
In 1871 Ellen isn't with her parents Henry & Ann. She's in the workhouse with 6 m. old daughter Rosa.
1841 the family can be found in Mt. Pleasant Brewood Staffs. so no indication they were Gypsies.

[Val17]

Thank you for the replies.
 Sorry for the year error. I am currently waiting for a cataract operation so cannot see very well. I am relying on my other senses to get me through.
I am trying to follow the people but with great difficulty because I have no one to ask questions of as all the paternal family I have found are deceased. I did find a third cousin on facebook but he will not reply to my messages.
The stories told were when we were children and never repeated again because our dad did not keep in touch with us.
As yet I can find no connection with any gypsy ancestors.
 I have tried the census and cannot find Ellen in either the 1901 or 1911.I have found her in the 1939 register.
My dad James was brought up under the surname Collins, as were we, apparently he only found out Patrick was not his dad when he had to get his birth certificate to marry mum in 1946.
  Wow that looks interesting jim1.
How do you all find these so quickly.

[jim1]

How do you all find these so quickly.

Experience.
It may be another branch of the family that were gypsies because it isn't the Farnell's

[jim1]

Just to fill some of the blanks & following on from the 1881 census.
Ellen married William Brookes in June 1881.

1881:
Ellen Farnell 34 unm. b. Crateford Staffs.
Annie Farnell 8
William H. Farnell 0
William Brookes 48 lodger

1891:
William Brookes 59
Ellen Brookes 46
William H Brookes 10
Alfred Brookes 3
Arthur J Brookes 7/12
 Piece: 2217; Folio: 53; Page: 2
1901:
William Brooks 69
Helen Brooks 52
Alfred Brooks 13
Arthur John Brooks 11
Piece: 2660; Folio: 47; Page: 10