Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher

[spencer53]

Hi Michael
Thanks for messaging.
Yes, I have George Oxby Smith in my tree. His mother Maria is the Sister of Ann Selina (Eleanor) Smith, bn Harby, Leicester in 1855. Selina was the Mother of my Grandmother Beatrice. That would make Maria my G/G/Aunt
Maria was also the link responsible for my contact with Kasiah who helped me a lot a couple of years ago, I still get updates from her "Twelvetrees" family on Ancestry.

I have a possible for George in the 1891 Census,
STAFFORDSHIRE > CHECKLEY > CHEADLE > DIST10
RG12/2192

BEAMHURST LANE ?? not 100% sure I have read this correctly

GEORGE SMITH   HEAD   MAR   22   CLOTHES PEG MAKER  BN NOTTINGHAM
ELLEN  -" - " -     WIFE     "          21                                    BIRMINGHAM

next listing

ARTHUR SMITH    HEAD   MAR   24   CLOTHES PEG MAKER      LEICESTER
MARY  A - " -       WIFE                21  - " - " - " -                    ARNOLD
FRANCIS              SON               1                                         WARWICKSHIRE

All the best for now
David

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Hi David

Looks like you found some good information, some of your relatives where over Arnold way from what Kizzy told me, i have not found out about Arnold much its just up and over the way from me, about a few hundred tossers of a stone from Sneinton, i will just show you some old paintings and maps soon so you may come to understand the area, try and feel into the past, it is no doubt in my mind there is a great links between the Wilshers and the Smiths, more than likely many many times down through these generations, they campt together at the lands i first found round Hawthorne Street, it was only a small camping place so i think only related family's would stay there, there was some foreigner Gipsies who stayed awhile but Old George Gipsy Smith tottally smashed them up bad, and broke there violins, the Wilshers would fight the Smiths to but that's what they seamed to do a lot, but there was lots of the Bacon's round there to who i have found through Kizzy and d.n.a that are in the related family's, i have matches to a Smith Girl who are in your related family plus i have a match to a Gray Girl who's family have the Bacon's and the Smiths who are related to you and Kizzy so there is d.n.a to match the oral family talk plus the census that Sky found plus the newspaper records of them all camping on that ground round the Wilford Meadows way ( Hawthorne street kings meadow road cremorne street and such) just look through these maps that show you the past

This painting is looking up to Nottingham from the South, on the left is the Castle to the right middle is St Marys that's where Sarah Boswell and my mother was taken when they both died, to the far right is (Snenton) Sneinton the name alters over the years, in the middle is the sharp spire of another church, old George Smith (Gipsy George) not old old George Smith (Gipsy Smith) would offten stand near there where there was the old barrow boys of the old family's selling things mostly fruit, i think many people of the Gipsies came into the Towns and such over generations when the common lands where enclosed, i would think a certain amount of barrow boys would hold Gipsy ancestry, Gipsy George i saw with my own eyes many times when i was young going through the town just stop and talk to some of the barrow boys, he would be old then and i was young but he seamed to be offten alone, just standing there with those far away eyes of the Gipsies, he was more of the darker shade than the white and dark hair and a long straight back a stiff and upright gate was his posture, he had, he always had the yellow and bright colours on a kneck tie round his top shoulder above is shirt, he was from an older age, i new now by this young age that somehow i was related to this quiet man of darkness but i dear not never to enter his presence, there was a sort of secret boundary that he seamed to radiate around himself, yet he could capture all with those dark eyes and imprison the field of vision evan tho he seamed to be staring far in to the future or evan the past, but i was fast as i have always been and it was me who stole his eyes, i new he was looking as i would walk by evan tho no one alive could  catch such eyes, sometimes i would get the feeling of loneliness from him, once or twice when i was sure i was not in his grasp i would stop for a bear senconed and take  a chance in not being seen in the way of a free glance, there he stood like a colossal of a statue staring out unto something i am sure that lay not before him, i remember being up at the Smiths House and the Woman talking about old Romany as in words, there was a few of them and all related they seamed like old hags to me that could make a lad trashed, Gipsy George just sat there and chatted to my Mother in a quiet fashion of ease, he could chat away and think of other things at the same time, i would feel his eyes, the Woman would just be crackling away about who new more of this and that and such things, but Gipsy George was reserved in his manner the Smiths still new many of the old Gipsy words that like the olden times have drifted away, Gipsy George Smith would talk to the old barrow boys of the town for that was all that was left of the older ways of the City life as from his earlyer days, everone of his age and older i would say was now gone he had time for my Mother to just to be polite now and that's a fine thing to share the good talk in an open manner i will tell more of the Smiths another time, i will probably never find certain truths, d.n.a oral talk, census records newspaper articles may link many but do they show the past as it was, i still have his eyes though so more will be revealed, of course these words where from me when i was young there must of been much more this is only from my own eyes

Snenton is on the right side of this painting next i will show more that will help everyone to understand the bigger picture, right at the front of this painting and below the castle is the lands known in the past as the Kings Meadow that became the lands that the Smiths and Family's like the Wilshers campt on, this is the South called the Meadows to the far right is Sneinton where next i will write about and show the maps and another painting to help

https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/nottingham-from-the-south-47533/search/actor:lambert-george-c-17001765/page/3/view_as/grid

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Hi David
                I have been trying to understand what I have been finding, there is no doubt that the Smiths like the Wilshers and many other Gipsy names as in family's travelled over what is known as a circuit, over time the City and Towns expanded, many times the Gipsy camps where like satellites that surrounded these places, some like Radford Marsh were home at times to many family's like the Grays Knights Allens and such, others would just be for a few extended family's like at Hawthorne Street, by the way I think it was known as Smiths field for the reason the Smiths camped there, Sky I think was right in thinking this could be true, the bigger camps like over at Radford would be from an older age that would be the reason many extended family groups would use it, the one at Hawthorne Street Kings Meadow would have followed on from the fields across the other side of the Trent river, I found Gipsies over that way before Hawthorne Street, they got closer and closer to the City has the City itself moved outwards, where once there were fields where once there were farms where once there were free and welcoming hideaways, yes, where once you would say, but they went, they went and they never came back, houses houses and more houses, thats what was built on the old fields that serounded the City long ago, I have found all this to be true, I will tell you later much more, you must read what Ellen Roseman writes about in the article next, try and read every word, go back to it time and time again try to absorb what as happened, this happening is the reason Gipsies ended up at the sides of motorways when they moved on, many Gipsy Family's stayed round the City's and Towns for the day of the Greenfield had passed, many then would be absorbed into the fabric of the city, after a few generations most of the offspring would know nothing much, maybe they would say chavie and have a photo of a varda, my own Mother would hawk and buy and sell in my younger days and she was brought up with her own grand parents close by and them born about the 1860s70s or thereabouts, my own Grandmother would pull away from evan other Gipsies if she thought they wasn't up to what She thought, some people talk of the word Mokody has a word, everyone as to live and die in their own family truth, how could a stranger understand that which he thinks of as strange, i suppose some Gipsies kept living on nice green fields but most i think ended up on camp sites not in green fields as time passed into the 1900s and onwards, look below how it says the Smiths where in Snenton in 1871, then look at where it says (Land Society's field caravan) I will elaborate more on these subjects soon......

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.............   I do know you and others can read and are more than likely educated far better than me, I am not trying to sound like I am teaching you anything, I hear so many people writing about Gipsy's and I truly think they are way of the mark, I have been studying the third Cousin meaning, I have many from the Gipsy's around this time, I will talk about that later but I share Gr Gr Grandparents with the Stanley's of the U.S.A straight third Cousin they say, you can be a third Cousin once removed that means it was maybe your Mother who was the third Cousin, so you has a match being the son of your Mother was a Cousin once removed, I have so many American Gipsy's that I share Old Family ties with like the Young's Boswells, and the Lees from Canada the Scamps from the South plus many more not to mention several Gipsy family's in these lands like the Smiths which i have several matches, I just can't believe it,  i don't evan know how or why, i was reading what Richard said on a d.n.a thread a time back and maybe this is a reason why so many Gipsy Family's are related to me, read below from Richard the Romany Gipsy Scholar of great renown who is the noted author of many of the most relevant written words of the Gipsies of the Lands we call Home...the one and only wordsmith extraordinaire...............    https://www.richedmunds.co.uk/


Offline richarde1979
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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #107 on: Monday 11 June 18 08:56 BST (UK) »
 
extract

I tend to agree with you on the ethnicity tests in general Sally, though I tested with LivingDNA, and it was about 85% acccurate compared to my paper research. It was very accurate with English counties, but not so great identifying regions outside those (Ireland, Scotland, France etc) so I think the companies are slowly getting better in that respect, as more people test, and their databases expand.

That said I would not agree with that analysis of mtDNA. mtDNA is not vague or unreliable, it gives very precise and accurate ancestry results:

"mtDNA is passed down exclusively from your mother. Because mtDNA does not include a combination of DNA from both parents, it does not change with every generation.In fact, mtDNA changes extremely slowly – it might remain exactly the same for dozens of generations!
mtDNA testing ignores the main DNA in a cell, and looks just at the DNA of the mitochondria instead. Among other things, that means the test only has to examine about 16,500 genetic base pairs, instead of the 3.2 billion base pairs found in our DNA."

In tracing links to ancient populations, it is of far more value than Y Haplogroups,  because mtDNA is present in higher numbers than nuclear DNA, and it is more likely to survive intact in ancient remains.


  The above is from Richard, i have d.n.a matched to several Wilsher and the Holmes familys, i match to most if not all of the old names that are thought of as Gipsies, and guess what David i dont evan know how, a long time back Lee wrote it will be there, it will be there, if your from them it will be there, Lee said you may have to go back a certain generation to pick up the trail of the unknown names, but if your of the Romany it will be there, you will as a person connect to the Gipsies as a whole, this is more all less how Lee spoke years back, then guess what i did my d.n.a and now i evan have ancestor's from Derbyshire called Boswell, that was a distant one, and i have distant Boswells from America plus Third Cousin Boswells from America and Lees from Wales. how about that then.. i am only talking like this because i still do not have a clue, Lee said his Dad always said Gipsy's are all related, through family ties this must be true, Lees Dad was right evan i am related to the Romany, as in lots of names, but who am i though, i guess i am still just the son of Rebecca and she the daughter of Rebecca the great matriarch of history who herself was the daughter of Mariah the great unknown......................

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...........anyway read this next about Sneinton from some of Kizzys research over the years, look where it says (Land Society's field caravan) make sure you read the article from Ellen Rosenman that I put on next about enclosure-acts-and-the-commons, make sure you understand fully about the meaning of (Land Society's field) it is first very important to read what Ellen Rosenman has to say, if you can help in any way you should write back with your research and knowledge correct me many times that would be the right thing todo, I will ask of you only one thing though, you may have to ask Kizzy, so this is what i ask of you. when George Smith died in 1941 what was on his death certificate.

Right this is about the Land Society field system, this knowledge as helped me understand what is going on around Nottingham right up to the times of my youth, good luck pal


Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 14 September 19 17:04 BST (UK) »
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
 He also used the alias Clayton.
George Oxby Smith was about in 1868 Stanton, Nr Bingham, Nottinghamshire, he was the son of John (Johnny) Smith bn 1833 Tur Langton, Leicestershire s/o Samuel Smith 1791-1864 and Reservoy (Reservoir) Smith 1796-1860, I think they were Uncle and Niece... George’s mother was Maria Smith bn Scalford, Leicestershire, d/o Levi Smith bn 1810 and Sophia Smith born 1811-
George's Father Johnny also had another partner at the same time (I believe the "wives" were also sisters) both wives were his 1st cousins.

1871 - He is encamped with his father, his father’s 2 "wives" and all their children in Snenton, Notts.


Re: smith/booth gypsies nottingham
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 15 April 12 16:33 BST (UK) »
Hi - Back again,

This is all I know about the Booth gypsy connection...

1871 census
Radford, Sneinton,  Land Society's field caravan, nottinghamshire
In first van
John Smith bn 1834 - his 2 co wives and all their children

next Van
Everitt Plumb bn 1833 Head 38  bn Nottinghamshire
Keziah Booth bn 1839  Boarder 32  Bn Leicestershire
James Plumb  bn  1866 Son       5  Bn      "
Henry Plumb  bn  1868 son        3   bn      "
Keziah Plumb bn  1871 daug      0   bn      "
Everett Plumb bn  1864 son       7    bn    Notts
Amelia Plumb  bn   1860  daug   11  bn  Leic

Everett Plumbs bn 1833 - his parents were
Nathan Plumb bn 1797 - 1885 Lambley and
Ann Cook bn 1806 - 1870 Gunthorpe Notts

One of their other daughters and Everett's sister was a Violetta Plumb bn 1833
who married in 1852 2Q Nottingham a William Caunt.  Someone has a lot of their family history on line.  They ended up living in Grantham.

Not sure if this helps you...

What I have learnt by reading books is that when looking for Gypsy relatives you have to forget how the non-gypsy folk use their names in a set way.  Travelling folk interchange the surname - use mothers maiden name, or an alias - and change their first name from time to time as well - also they didn't always marry in the way we would call marry - so there is no legal trace - it's wonderful!!!  But most often there is a christening somewhere - you just have to find it.

I really need to make the connection with the Smiths and Keziah Booth...

Kazi








Extract from article below

Rosenman, Ellen. “On Enclosure Acts and the Commons.”  Britain, Representation and Nineteenth-Century History.

 "The Northern Star, the chief newspaper of Chartism, mourned the extinction of the “hardy sons of the earth” who typified Englishness (“THE LAND!”). Radical politics consistently looked to an imputed past as the model for the future. This fealty to a single version of England, understood as originating in its ancient Anglo-Saxon origin, is one of the defining features of working-class politics.[13] National identity itself was at risk; with the betrayal of a foundational culture, the land itself is dying:

No more thy glassy brook reflects the day,
But choked with sedges, works its weedy way . . .
Sunk are thy bowers, in shapeless ruin all,
(Deserted Village ll. 41-43, 47)

Given this context, it is not surprising that populist politics turned to a variety of land schemes in an attempt to restore pre-enclosure communities. In the late 1840s and 1850s, freehold land societies attempted to recreate these communities on a micro-scale."

 


http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=ellen-rosenman-on-enclosure-acts-and-the-commons



Ellen Rosenman, “On Enclosure Acts and the Commons ...

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Hi David

 Kizzy wrote below old old George Gipsy Smith died in 1941

 
 Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #66 on: Saturday 14 September 19 17:04 BST (UK) »
GEORGE OXBY SMITH "Gypsy Smith" 1868-1941.
 He also used the alias Clayton.   


do you know what month he died in 1941, and also was there a George stated as one of his sons, there is another George from what Kizzy told me who was born in Hyson Green Nottingham 1889, i am trying to work out was Gipsy George Smith the son of George Gipsy Smith who Kizzy says ended up at Keswick street, this below is the other George that Kizzy wrote about who was born in Nottingham, i want to be sure that the George who we new was the son of the  George Smith who lived at Keswick street, this other George below plus any number of them could of had a George, i know they are all related and many around Sneinton


Re: Nottingham stopping ground-Smiths Field? Help
« Reply #73 on: Tuesday 17 September 19 14:46 BST (UK) »
Beatrice Smith
Bn Jan 1860 Braunston, Leicestershire
Bp 8 Jan 1860 Croxton Kerrial, Leic
Marr 16 Jan 1888 in Leicester – James Wesseldine
D 2 Aug 1948 Nottingham, Notts.

1871 and 1881 census she is with her parents and family.
1939 Register she is living in Nottingham with her family and died there in 1948.

Children:
Lillie Wesseldine 1889-1957
John (Johnny) Wesseldine 1890-1971
Mary Ann Wesseldine 1892-
James Wesseldine 1894-1959
William Wesseldine 1894-1900


Thomas Albert Smith
Bn 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
Bp 11 Jan 1863 Plumbtree, Notts.
D 1928 The old Workhouse Hospital, Nottingham.

Partnered Medlane Smith 1862-1907 (died from appendicitis) d/o Hawthorne Smith 1817-1883 & Cinamenta Smith 1819-1914

Children:
George Smith Bn 1889 Hyson Green, Notts.
Reservoir Smith Bn 5 Nov 1890 Castleton St, Nottingham -Died 1980 Doncaster, Yorkshire.
      She married in 1908 George Edward Sidney Margetts 1886-1941
Mary Ann Smith Bn 4 Apr 1893 Hyson Green – Died 1973 Nottingham, Notts.
      She married in 1915 Thomas Stanley 1892-1945
Beatrice Smith Bn 1899 Hyson Green, Notts.
Henry (Harry) Smith Bn 1901 Berridge Road, Hyson Green, Notts.

 
Old Gipsy George Smith and my Mother stated we were cousins, Kizzy stated old old George Gipsy Smith lived at Keswick street Sneinton in the later years, i need the month in 1941 that he died to help to find concluded truth and also did he have a son named George who went on to be the Gipsy George Smith related to us, i know there are many many children some maybe unknown and Sneinton seems to be a strong place of the Smiths from the family of George Smith Gipsy Smith who died in 1941, Gipsy George Smith who we new died also from Sneinton and lived there to, i have to try and work things out for i would see the face of my Mother as she recounted the death of her own Mother, she told me she asked and asked she tryed and she tryed but no one would tell her the real truth regarding the death of her own Mother in fact from what i have found she was lied to

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Hi David
 
This is just to show you some information that may help you to understand how things where, everything connects, Old Gipsy George Smith who said we were related had sons to I remember one was named George and another named Sid Smith, so they liked the name George but in the story below you will read how one of old old George Gipsy Smiths sons was also named Sid, so I think they liked that name to, it may well be a clue, I will show and finish telling you about Sneinton soon, Sneinton links straight onto Carlton, also the old RedLion street in the old Narrow Marsh next to and below the Queen of the City St Marys, then within walking distance is the Meadows which they all lived on, they all moved about the City but mostly ended up in Sneinton, the Smiths and the Wilshers for sure go back a long way, I think there were many Smiths this way they I think would know the ones more South and the ones more North, East and West to, I think that ole Gipsy grapevine what they talk about in this day was well in use many years before our time, I will finish what I was talking about regarding Sneinton soon and show you more things of your Smith ancestor's, if you can not help me in any of the questions I ask of you, well it doesn't matter, I will get there one day if not I wont
Story below shows the name of Sid also it holds many truths
 
Friday 02 August 1929
  West Bridgford Times & Echo
   Nottinghamshire

CARLTON MAN'S 81 CONVICTIONS!

Gipsy Sent To Prison For Police Assault.

BRUTES 15 CHILDREN.

Remarkable Demonstration Outside the Shire Hall.

A remarkable demonstration of filial affection was witnessed both inside and outside the Nottingham Shire Hall on Wednesday. when George Smith, aged 61. who lives in a caravan In Cemetery-road. Carlton, was charged with assaulting the police and committing an aggravated assault on his wife. The wife, Agnes Smith, made an application for a maintenance order on the grounds of persistent cruelty. Police-sergeant Oscroft stated that as a result of a complaint concerning Smith using indecent language he visited the caravan colony at 9.40 p.m. last Saturday along with P.c. Morgan. On reaching the place he heard Smith using the most vile and indecent language imaginable. When Smith saw them he rushed to the gate and picked up a cart-shaft, swinging it about as if he was mad. He was very excitable, and after he had calmed down a little witness told him that he had called to see him about the bad language he was using.
 
 like a Raging Lion.

Smith then raved like a raging lion, said the sergeant He shouted that he had done four months for better than he was, and could do it again. He threatened to fetch a gun and shoot them both. Smith then picked up a cart-shaft and used it bayonet fashion. striking him in the chest. There was a struggle, and eventually Smith was overpowered and handcuffed.  When charged at the police-station with assaulting Ps. Oscroft in the execution of his duty. Smith replied: Fetch a doctor. I want to be down. Asked by Mr. R. A. Young (defending) if there was a quarrel between the man and his wife. Ps. Oscroft said that there had been.  With regard to the use of the cart-shaft Smith did not simply throw it out of the way. He made a deliberate thrust. P.c. Morgan, who had taken part in the adventure. corroborated. and said that when Smith thrust the shaft at the sergeant the latter was knocked back a yard.

Prisoner's Version. 

Smith's story was that his wife fell out of the trap when they reached home from Nottingham. and she blamed him for causing the fall, and went to fetch a policeman. The police handcuffed him, and he fell over the cart-shaft which he kicked out of his way. Asked if he was drunk Smith said. No, or i should not have gone to the policestation as quiet as i did. Sidney Smith, a 17-years-old son of the accused, said he saw his mother fall out of the trap. His father did not cause her to fall. With regard to the cart-shaft his father tripped over it, and with a few angry words to himself flung it out of the way

.......................continued on the next page

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...............continued from previous page

Wife Thrashed With Whipstock.

The next summons was for an aggravated assault on his wife. Mrs. Smith said she had been married 17 years. and there was four children under 16 years of age. Last Saturday she went to Nottingham with her husband and returned home with him about four o'clock. He then went out and returned about ten o'clock. and belaboured her with a whipstock without any cause whatever. He struck her at least eight blows, and her screams brought P.s. Oscroft on the scene, who arrested her husband. Asked where she was going to live if she got a separation order Mrs. Smith said she would rather go to Bagthorpe than return to her husband . If her son spoke the truth with regard to the trap incident he would say that he did not see it. He was not there, and she did not fall out of the trap. Miss Mosley (Police Court Missioner) stated that she had examined Mrs. Smith. She was black and blue all over, and in a terrible state. At the request of her solicitor (Mr. F. Clayton) Mrs. Smith showed her arm to the magistrates. which was one mass of bruises from wrist to shoulder.

Scene in Court.

Smith showed his excitability in court. He constantly held up the proceedings, shouting in a loud voice, and when asked if he could not keep his client quiet Mr. R. A. Young said he knew of no means to achieve that end. The defence to the assault on the wife was a complete denial. Smith sticking to the story that she fell out of the trap. and the bruises were obtained in that way. Smith admitted that his wife had left him on six previous occasions. Inspector Richards said that Smith had a shocking record. His 81 previous convictions included five assaults on the police.

Unmitigated Brutality.

Lord Belper (chairman) characterised the offence as unmitigated brutality, and sent Smith to prison for six months on each charge, the sentences to run concurrently. The wife's application for a maintenance order would be allowed, and Smith would have to pay 30s. a week. Mrs. Smith would have the custody of the four youngest children. Immediately the sentence was announced Smith burst into tears, and raved about the court. He would not be pacified, and a group of gipsies who had been sitting at the back of the court Joined in the pandemonium. Smith shouted to his sons to keep a tight hold on his property, and he was taken to the cells groaning between tears.

Gathering of Nomads.

The scene outside the court was as if all the nomads on Epsom Downs had been let loose. Smith. it is stated has 15 children (some with a previous wife), and most of them were in the street in charge of horses and traps. Several of the sons and daughters, whose ages ranged from 40 to 17, were in tears, and none seemed to have any sympathy for the woman who had been so brutally treated. 
 
In the paper below it gives the address of where they where stopping in their caravans, it must have been a lane next to Cemetery-road of which i have not found in Carlton, Carlton is just up Carlton road which is next to Keswick street and all those roads and streets that the Wilshers and Smiths lived on, Keswick street is in Sneinton and Sneinton is next to Carlton and st Ann's, everyone is within close reach, i think some would move into houses and yards yet still move about with wagons around the City way up into the second world war, others stayed in houses but would move about from house to house, others it is true to say left Nottingham and once again hit the road, my older brother and sister told me they used to visit an Aunt somewhere in Nottingham who still lived in a old wooden varda, i remember my Mother talking about Marry, as in how you say the word "married" you know how you say “ I will marry that girl ” it's a strange way to say a name but that was how her name was spoke, Marry not marie, it rhymes with how you say harry, Marry, yes Marry was her name i to this day do not know who she was, my Mother said she was our Aunt, i was thinking at one time if it may have been Mariah that's my Gr Grandmother but i think for sure she may have passed away awhile before, on records my Gr Grandmothers name is mary or marie but that was not her name, her real name was Mariah and they never put that on records, people would think such things strange but when you think how Joseph Wilsher Wiltshire lived with his wife and her mother as two wife's well I suppose some would think strange of these things, to tell you the truth I don't think my own mother-in-law thinks much of me at all so we can knock that one on the head in this day, Ria lived in a house not to far away from us, i would be a very young age when she was still alive but i remember her well, she was another Aunt my Mother told me i was to behave myself when we would go to see Ria, Ria was from the Romany Gipsy family named Holmes, my Mother would say the Smiths was also like them as in family, she told me the Holmes and the Smiths were also altogether down the years, i lingered just one second to much once, just a second and Rias eyes pierced my soul, straight through, straight through, but she was fast she never lingered long in capturing me and freed my eyes and through this she allowed me to keep hers, she was also reserved in a quiet strength yet i felt a cold breeze that lay behind the barricade.

Thursday 01 August 1929
 Nottingham Journal
  Nottinghamshire

Stonepit-lane. Carlton

[Jackholmans01]

Hi I see on one of you posts that you said you have links to mark ripley, flora ripley( nee scamp) and other beaneys/ripleys and scamps. Flora ripley is my great great nan on my great grandads side and mark ripley is my great great grandad on my great nans side if you have any more information on relative please could you let me know or if you would like to know anything I’ll be more than happy to help