Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher

[panished]

Hi Jane
They are great photos you put up on the previous page, thank you for showing them, thank you very much, the Lady on the first one has the Eyes of the Smiths from my way, Jane Smith said we was long Cousins, she told me this when we was young, she also had them deep ridge eyes, I may be looking at things wrong but I just thought I would tell you.       

I was looking on my d.n.a matches and a Lady came up as sharing d.n.a with me, her first name is Thelma she is related to many Gipsies its just I was looking for you to try and find answers to what I am finding out, its probably more for me really but you may learn somethings also, well me and Thelma are long Cousins they say from the olden times she has many of the old Family Gipsy names that are known of,  a very Rich history runs through the Gipsy Lady known as Thelma, well from the free bits that she lets me see well there is a Deadman Smith connection on one side of her tree, read this below to try and follow what I say, I was thinking it could be your Relatives, it could be Annie wed to Jack from your photos that you put up on the previous page.


Annie Jane Deadman wed John / Jack Smith their Daughter was Sarah Sally Smith 1888 1941 she wed George Napolian Gray 1755 1939 their Daughter was Amelia Gray 1912 1991 George Napolian Grays Mother and Father were Elias Gray and Amelia Heron all this is on one side of Thelma's Family tree, if you look on the other side of her tree there is a Louisa Butler wed to a Samual Smith who went on to have a Son Samuel Smith 1873 1945 he wed Rhoda Smith 1872 1950 Rhoda's Mam and Dad was Sydney Smith and Fiansey Smith another set of Old Parents stems down from a fighting man by the look of him known as Orlando (Landor) Smith, if you follow this line down to today the Rodgersons who wed to these Smiths who then wed back to the Smiths who come down from the Smiths and Butlers all on Thelma's one line, the latest Rodgerson and Smiths then wed into the latest Thelma's other line Through the Grays right back to Deadman Heron Smiths, it sounds complicated but when your looking at it in a tree format its really quite easy to understand, also if i was reading right on the map on the same Cousin d.n.a to me is  names of other Deadmans from the South.

William Deadman
1796–1851
Baptised : Rodmell, Sussex

Richard Dedman
1758–1825
Rodmell, Sussex

 I just wanted to show you these litle reports below, when i trawl through thousands of reports i find things of interest, i also i find vast amounts of general information, offten about the Gipsy Family's as a whole, offten to i read of the histories of everything by mear chance, when i was looking for your relatives the Deadmans i also read many records that evan though they were unconnected to the research i was doing well i still found they educated me in the histories of life these below are just a few that i found why i was trying my best to help you, i hope you to enjoy researching as much as i do


Thursday 12 July 1917
 Cornishman
  Cornwall

  A GIPSY'S FIRE. Fiance Penfold, of no fixed address, was charged with making a fire within 50 feet of the centre of the Highway at Deadman's Grave, in the parish of Sancreed, 15th June. P.S. Mitchell 


Monday 18 May 1789
  Reading Mercury
   Berkshire

Whereas  I Lydia Deadman, wife of James Deadman labourer, of Tadley, did wilfully and maliciously scandalize the said Jon Kimber, basket maker of Tadley aforesaid, on the 16th of April last and several other times prejudice his character, which I the said Lydia Deadman do acknowledge myself to be a lying, false, scandalous and promise never to scandalize the said Jon Kimber, or any his family any more, under the penalty of five pounds.The mark X of Lydia Deadman.


Tuesday 19 November 1839
 Morning Post
   London

 EXTENSIVE EXHXUMAIATION OF HUMAN BONES.-For the last few days much curiosity has been excited in the neighbourhood of Old Brentford in consequence of the discovery of a large quantity of human bones in an extraordinary state of preservation, as was also the hair. The spot, it is said by some of the inhabitants, used formerly to be called Deadmen's Graves, and there is a tradition extant in the town that during the great plague in London a female called Moll Ransom used to drive a cart on which she sat, through the streets, crying Bring out your dead; that she brought down hundreds of bodies, which were interred in heaps in the ground in question Information of the  finding of the bones has been forwarded to Mr. Wakley, the coroner, but it is not supposed he will consider it necessary to hold an inquest.

 And this one below is of great interest for i never have known of Gipsies named Gentle so then i just chansed on this report below then did a d.n.a direct search and no matches came up, then i did a related match search meening if any of my direct d.n.a matches had a Family named Gentle then this would show up, so i clicked on all my d.n.a matches to see if any had the Gentle Family in their tree and guess who came up, just two, one was you, and the other Thelma from above, how mad is that

Saturday 12 December 1863
 Hereford Times
   Herefordshire

DISTRICT NEWS
  Wednesday.—Before the Rev. James Davies. Obstructing the Highway. William Gentle, licensed hawker and owner of one of those large caravans carrying profusion of brushes, brooms, and variety of other articles, was charged 

[janeo]

Thelma is my cousin ,we are in touch ,her greatgran and my grandad were brother and sister ,the photo of Jackie Smith is the dad of Thelmas greatgran Sally Smith who married Napolean Gray Sally and my grandad were brother and sister ,i have many old photos ...i ,m on Ancestry  DNA as Janey Smith and a close match with Thelma ..

[janeo]

Louisa Butler and Samuel are my ancestors through their son I have many photos ,i,m in touch with descendents of Fiance and Sidney aka Sydnal.they ,the brothers were sons of John Smith and Ann Nanny Loveridge . so yes this is my family and my great granny Emily Smith Elliott was down from Sibberena Smith and back to Cain Smith .I have many relatives back in the uk who are still living the life ,most are on there own sites but still Romany ..

[janeo]

Sally and Polli Gray ...the headstone as now been destroyed in a grave yard clean up ..

[janeo]

Deadman monuments ..my greatgrannie AnnJane Deadman Smith family ..

[panished]

Hi Jane

Thank you again for putting up the photos, thank you for showing them, I like to learn of the past Peoples and show them the greatest respect the Deadmans are indeed a great Gipsy Family I have been lucky to learn of them and will never forget them, you said you are related through Family ties with the Winter Family also, well I found that report that showed they were together in that article I put up a few pages back, now do you remember where Roy Deadman was living at Ruseley, well look who's living there also in the same timescale in the article below, I do not know what you may find of such things, i may have seen things wrong but there must be an answer



Friday 18 April 1958
 Lichfield Mercury
  Staffordshire

 ………Before the court was Andrew Winters. of no fixed abode, who denied driving the van whilst under the influence of drink and assaulting a policeman. The Magistrates found the case proved, and Winters was ordered to pay £2O with 9s. costs.
 

Saturday 19 January 1957
 Rugeley Times
   Staffordshire

Crowd gathered when men fought in the Market Square Two men who were seen by a police-constable fighting in the Market Square........ on Thursday charged with disorderly behaviour. Raymond Jones (23), of 63, Michael's Road, Brereton, and Andrew Winters (3O), of Alma Dene. Garden Drive, Ruseley, admitted the offence......... 

This below is the report showing the same address, its maybe a coincidence but its worth looking at.

Saturday 20 September 1958
 Rugeley Times
  Staffordshire


 Horse dealer who became a salesman The death occurred on Tuesday of Mr. Roy Deadman. of Alma Dene. Garden Drive, Rugeley. Mr. Deadman, who was 71, was well known in the town. In his younger days he was like his father and grandfather before him, a horse dealer.



I showed you one of these but by looking for more reports you conbine them all together and a bigger picture comes to be known


Saturday 21 June 1856
  Leicestershire Mercury
    Leicestershire,

Births, Marriages, and Deaths.
On the 16th inst., at Melton Mowbray, Mr. Doriah Deadman, of the Staffordshire Potteries, to Sarah Smith, of Melton

Saturday 04 October 1856
  Leicester Chronicle
   Leicestershire

— On the 30th ult, of small pox, aged 25, Sarah Deadman. Deceased, a gipsy, had only been married three months.

Thursday 09 October 1856
   Nottinghamshire Guardian
     Nottinghamshire

also, on the 30th, aged 25, Sarah, wife of Mr. Doriah Deadman. 


I just put these small extracs on for there are many with more information in to read, I just like to learn everything, I think these maybe are the Deadmans we talk about but I could be wrong

 
Friday 01 February 1952
  Staffordshire Advertiser
   Staffordshire

 
CARPETS CARPETS CARPETS GREAT ONE DAY SALE THURSDAY NEXT. FEBRUARY 5th. 10-30 to 4-30 THREE TUNS. GAOLGATE STREET, STAFFORD CARPETS : RUGS : Axminster, Wilton, Belgium, Italian and Velvet Pile Special Offer of 5 Top-grade Indian Carpets, We supply the CHEAPEST CARPETS in the MIDLANDS, so buy today and save pounds tomorrow Some of the Goods are Slighty Soiled and will be at Deadman, London Road. Derby. 


 Friday 20 March 1953
   Ripley and Heanor News and Ilkeston Division Free Press
    Derbyshire

CARPETS CARPETS GREAT CLEARANCE SALE At 20 per cent. Reductions
    T. and S. Deadman. Rugby Street, Off London Road, Derby. ...
 

 Saturday 27 November 1954
  Stapleford & Sandiacre News
    Nottinghamshire

CARPETS! CARPETS! SALE OF CARPETS 
 TO-DAY to save Pounds To-morrow SALE ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 27 From 10.30 a.m. to 4.30 p.m., at THE ZION HALL, LONG EATON R DEADMAN, London Road. Derby. Licence No. NI.A7...
 

Friday 09 September 1955
  Ripley and Heanor News and Ilkeston Division Free Press
    Derbyshire


CARPETS! GREAT Clearance Sale OF CARPETS, RUGS AND STAIR CARPETS In all makes and sizes. At the METHODIST CHURCH HALL, NOTTINGHAM ROAD, ALFRETON. On FRIDAY, SEPT. 16th, 10 a.tn. to 4 p.m. R. DEADMAN 2, New Park Street, Leicester. 

I found a few more reports I hope they maybe of help to you
 
Wednesday 27 February 1963
  Leicester Evening Mail
    Leicestershire


  Dealer found dead at Markfield A CARAVAN dweller. Mr. William Elliott 49. general dealer. was found hanging dead in a tree at Markfleld yesterday. Mr. Elliott had been missing from his caravan for several hours and when he was found a search for him was in progress. His body was discovered by Mr. James Deadman away fram his caravan............... on land attached to Thrustle Bush Farm………………. 


Wednesday 02 October 1963
  Leicester Evening Mail
    Leicestershire


STRUCK SERGEANT AT CRASH SCENE
A MAN WHO INTERFERED
while the police were dealing with a road accident at Coalville .............and eventually struck one of the officers, was fined at Coalville. He is James Deadman 22, a lorry driver, who pleaded guilty to assaulting a policeman in the execution of his duty and also to causing damage to windows in a cell at  Coalville police station.   In a separate case. Deadman said to live in a caravan…………………   
 

Thany you again for all the photos you put on and the words you have spoken i will try and see if i can find other things that may be of help to you .......from michael x

[janeo]

thank you for all the info ,and you have solved a mystery for me ,i remember my parents going to a funeral ,my dads cousin ,and that was William Elliott ! i could not remember his name but knew of the sad circumstances .... also my greatgrandad Darious was married for a short time to a Sarah Smith and she died young ,he married again soon after to Ellen Hodgkinson  i found the marriage certs for both weddings  so that is also great info i,m copying all the info ,thank you again ...

[panished]

 Hi Jane
 
I received another distant Cousin match that I have been trying to learn from it looks like their last name is the Montague's (Buckingham Montague) the person who is stated as a long far cousin to me is male and at a first glance a person would think such a name may not be related to the Gipsy's of old, this Montague gives nothing away in their profile that they let you see yet if you click onto who you both share dna with seven names come up, all seven are of the Gipsy's, Ancestry says they are in the  fourth cousin Column in a the 4th–6th Cousin  range at a long shot they say some could go as high as a third cousin to be truthful I do not understand what they are telling me, I think in my own mind cousins related through old connection's may come from a sideways longshot that may be closer than a straight back the line as in how we all think of genealogy, this to may reverse itself, anyway the (Buckingham Montague) is dna related to two Smith Lady's a Clayton a male Pearce a female Crabtree a male Davies and a female Byrne all these seven are stated as dna related to me and they all have many shared match's with me in clusters of several Gipsy names from the past, I do not share a single none Gipsy link with any of these dna matches, through learning this way I know Ancestry are on to a truth for if I look through the many dna links on my Fathers line they are straight from Irelands lands of Green they do not interlink with my cousin dna links from my Mothers side, I do not know how Ancestry know such things but they must be on to something, well these seven dna matches that me and Montague share as many connecting dna Gipsy related dna match links there is not a single crossover to the other clusters like I have found that do not hold a single name or link with the Gipsy's, so Montague is related to the Davies man and I am related to him to yet when I click on his profile he does not give much away unless you write to him, but the man Davies does not hide his dna links that is the same as mine and we now share twenty seven dna cousin matches so you can see there is dna left between us both, we both now share dna of people named Bailey Gray Young Stanley Jeffery and big Jack is back with is massive dna names of old infact all twenty seven same dna links are massive in the names they hold like the great Smiths but back to Montague from the long cousin link and this now is where I am searching for an answer.

In short Montague keeps his powder dry yet his back is not to the wall for I see all our shared dna, one is the person known as Byrne a Lady at that, now she lets me see that she is indeed from the Davies like the Davies above they both share many Gipsy dna links through Family names with me whether this is backways or sideways I do not know, well look at Byrne ancestor's straight down the line solid Davies on both sides theirs Wisdom's on both her Fathers side and her Mothers side and a few Cornelius Davies and evan a Cornelius Stephens who weds cinnamenta smith-1880–1965 and what about one legged Aaron Smith 1788–1859, and theirs Locke's to and the Lees, theres many more but what I would like to learn about is why is it stated on Bryn's Family tree that Mizzeley Davis weds Cornelius Jame's Davies and that Mizzeley Mother and Father were Mizzeley Harrison and W.H. Davies.

Now this is the great bit for remember when I said only the links in shared dna show up from the sixth to first in the cousin range as in shared dna, well that's why the older ones hold more clues they may be older and the amount of dna less but all cousins are cousins so now I find a long cousin link in the far range that they call distant right at the end of Ancestry's knowledge in this day they name it as 5th–8th Cousin this is someone who must live over a mountain and out of sight, but their voice Carry's through the canyon and I still hear it, now this male far cousin of mine is named Wisdom as in his first name I will not tell you his last name for I do not think you can do that, anyway back to Mizzeley Davis who weds Cornelius Jame's Davies and Mizzeley Mother and Father were Mizzeley Harrison and W.H. Davies on Bryn's tree well now on Wisdom's tree Mizzeley Davis is down as being Mizzley Winter and she comes out of the Winters not the Harrisons or Davies it just says Winter it's the same people yet different names, I am dna related to the Winters to, I try to understand about all theses names Ancestry send me, as in what does it all meen, in real truth, it was easier when my Mother said we were related to the Holmes and the Smiths, and I have received more dna matches linking me to the European Gipsy's that Ancestry say I have dna with, two more popped up that's about five now, the Davies I think are from the South near the Wales way and Wisdom is from Dudley Staffordshire, i have more Davies dna matches to and more Smiths, I do wonder about things, I don't evan have a tree, to be truthful I don't evan know who is who, people have showed me things from the census records but are they accurate, just imagine if the censuses are wrong, it only takes one mistake or falseness and  everythings a lie, thank you again for putting up the photos about your relatives, take care.
michael x

 

[kaziah]

Hi, I have an update on George Oxby Smith and his wives...

George Oxby Smith was born in a tent, Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts on the 13 March 1868.  On his birth cert his father is given as John Smith a Labourer and his mother as Mary Smith, Previously Smith.

He was Baptised 18 Mar 1868 Staunton-on-the-Wolds, Notts.  His father is given as John Smith, mother Maria - Gipsies.

As previousley stated in this thread, on the 1891 census he is encamped in Checkley, Cheadle, Staffs aged 24 with Ellen Smith (Clayton) 21, Arthur Smith 24, Mary Ann Smith 24 (our direct ancestor) and her child Francis Smith aged 1.

George Oxby Smith died on 5 Feb 1947 at 4 Keswick Street Sneinton, Nottingham.  His death was registered by E Doyle, daughter of 4 Keswick Street.  She is Ellen Hetty Smith bn 1 Jul 1920, her mother being Agnes White. Ellen Hetty is now the partner of an Andrew Doyle 1915-1980.
George was buried 11 Feb 1947 Wilford Hill Cem, Nottingham in the same grave as Agnes and their son Albert Henry Smith 1925-1955 (he died in Sidcup, Kent).

Ellen Clayton died on 12 Apr 1912 - I think she died having her last child Sidney Smith, on the 1939 Register Sidney Smith says his date of birth is 21 Apr 1912 - I think he has transposed the numbers.  Ellen Clayton was buried on the 15 Apr 1912 in the General Cemetery, Nottingham.

George then marries Agnes White as previously stated in this thread on 27 Jul 1912.  On the 1939 register Agnes give her DOB as 5 Nov 1893 - Her death certificate says she was born 29 Nov 1892 in Dundee, Scotland.  Agnes died on 5 Nov 1971 in Homewell Walk, Nottingham.  Her death was registered by E Elliott, daughter - this is the same Ellen Hetty Smith that registered George's death.  She is now the partner of Walter/William? Elliott 1920-1962 son of Everett Elliott 1898-1933 and Betsy Elizabeth Woodward 1901-1967.
After George's death Agnes married Arthur Orpe a Night Watch Man 1894-1966 in 1947.
Agnes was buried on the 11 Nov 1971 with George and their son.  No other people are in this grave.

Ellen Clayton
I'm wondering if her parents were
Frederick Clayton bn 1829 Wilshaw, Sutton-in-Ashfield
and
Louisa Clayton bn 1828 Berkswell, Warwickshire died 1909 Staffs.

Newspaper Reports in summary:

Newspaper Article
16 Mar 1909 • Offence in Pullman Street, Nottingham
George Smith a Hawker of Sneinton in trouble for stealing a washing line clothes prop in Pullman Street, he promised to behave himself and was let go.

Newspaper Article
28 Jan 1921 • Crown and Anchor, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
John Spencer 26, Hawker of 75 Red Lion St and George Jones alias Spencer 21 Hawker of 95 Red Lion St chgd with wilfully wounding George with intent to harm by shooting his son Tom Smith. George was shot in the cheek-both prisoners were wanted by warrant.

Newspaper Article
27 Feb 1926 • Living in a van, Hawthorne Street, Nottingham
Got into a fight - he and his sons refused to leave The Travellers Rest - George was fined and Frank and Thomas got prison for assaulting a PC.

Newspaper Article
19 Jan 1929 • Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
George was shot in the chin by John Spencer who also tried to shoot George's son Tom Smith.
Sent to prison for beating his wife.

2 Aug 1929 • Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
She claimed he had beater and pushed her out of a horse and cart, GS and a son said she fell. Stated that George had 15 children aged 40-17 - 4 with Agnes all under 16. she had left him on 6 previous occasions.  George had 81 previous convictions - none of his children showed any sympathy towards Agnes. She was said to be black and blue with bruises. George burst into tears when sentenced.

Newspaper Article
27 Jan 1937 • of Walker Street, Nottingham, Nottingham,shire, England
George was Summonds for allowing William Chalk of Walker Street to use his car without insurance - George was fined £3.00.

Newspaper Article
16 Mar 1937 • of - 52 Walker Street, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
George was taken drunk to Leanside Police Station. He was found to have £151.18s in his pocket (that is equivalent to £7,600 in todays money) - George left with a caution.
Newspaper Article
24 May 1937 • of 52 Walker Street, Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England
George Smith of 52 Walker Street charged with allowing Sidney Smith, his son to drive George's car unsupervised (while he was a learner with no license).

I'm still trying to work out all of Georges Children:  Any suggestions or help would be great...  I'm also working on his 2 brother who also lived in Nottingham.  I think they have both been mentioned by me before, but am focussing on the now as well.  They are:

Thomas Albert Smith 1863-1928

William Smith 1867-1947

Bye for now
Kazi