Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher

[kaziah]

Hi again,
your story is so sad - you have kept a wonderful oral history going...  by sharing it, it is kept l alive.
Yes, old George Oxby smith died in 1947, not 1941 like I had first thought.  He would have been 74 when your grandmother was attacked, not beyond the realms that he could have done it.  One of his sons was called George Henry Smith, born in 1917, so old enough to have also done it...  but it does sound like one of them was responsible.

I will do some looking about this week and see what I can find...  Would be interesting if there was a cousin connection.  This line is my sons, he has had his DNA tested with Ancestry and we definitely  have the right family line going back as we have had matches that show this.  George Oxby Smith had some sisters I have not been able to trace yet...  maybe a connection through them?

You do get the feel that Gypsy George was a menace and a thug.  He would have been dealt with very differently today.

I will dig about and see what I can find- do come back if you need anything clarifying - I can get mixed up at times.

Thanks for all that information, you must have spent a lot of time researching.
Bye for now Kazi

[kaziah]

Hi,
I have checked the burial you asked for...

Rebecca Holmes died 24 Apr 1942 bur 29 Apr 1942 aged 42 Death occurred at 243 or 43 Alfred Street, Central Nottingham.

Also in the same grave - Section No I J36 Grave No 5 Southern Cemetery, Wilford Hill

Maria Wilshire                  died 27 Feb 1954  bur 2 Mar 1954
David Holmes (AKA Ward) died 27 Nov 1940  bur 2 Dec 1940
William Wilshire                died  1 May 1936  bur 7 May 1936

Hope that helps
Kazi

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  Helo Kazi

Thank you for helping me and I will write back another time, you have been very kind to me and I will always remember you with fondness, thank you for finding the true date in confirming my thoughts, I see you as you in your kind deeds and wish for good luck to pass your way.

This below is about Elik, we both wrote a few times to each other, in life you get one shot, Elik was on the front line and a good kind person, I will always speak of his great name and also wish you to read these words below, Elik was also kind to me in the days of the past, Elik spoke  but a few words to me yet the few could outshine the vast books of the so-called who passed their judgment on people that they only fooled and the foolish who also in this day willingly believe a room that contains holds truth, but what does contain mean if not to shakle, why not look through free eyes, why is a trying word, better to leave the fools with fools words for they know not how to try, I stayed round Lanark for a few days once on my way up to the higher mid lands of Scotland, I will always remember Elik, why would I ever forget him.
   
Elic Kennedy
 
8 February 2010
ON CHRISTMAS Eve the Gypsy Traveller community saw, with great sadness, one of our finest men travel on from us. Following a short and sudden illness, Elic passed away at Hairmyres Hospital in South Lanarkshire.

Alexander Kennedy was born 60 years ago last August in Lanark, but it wouldn't have mattered where, as he loved every part of this country. He was a proud Romany Gypsy man whose family roots lay in and around the Lanark, Borders and Edinburgh areas. He was a direct descendant of one of the foremost Romany Gypsy families in Scotland and could trace his bloodline back to the Queen of the Yetholm Gypsies, Esther Faa Blyth.

Elic loved his culture, its traditions, its way of life, history and language.

He was an artist of some considerable talent. He could make anything out of wood and created many paintings (none of which he would sell for profit) depicting scenes of Gypsy Traveller life including the caravans and wagons of yesteryear.

Elic was a great character who lived life to the full. He had a great sense of fun and loved engaging with people from all walks of life. He loved nothing better than taking his vardo (traditional Romany wagon] to what is now left of the traditional Gypsy gatherings such as St Boswells, Brough Hill and Appleby. The first thing he would do was light up a "stick fire" where everybody would congregate and pass the time of day. Whether you were Giorgio or Gypsy Traveller you would walk away with a history lesson. If you hung about long enough, and many did, you would get a right good feed from the many pots cooking over the fire (nouvelle cuisine was certainly not on his menu).

Elic and his family had recently become settled in Symington, but he had spent most of his life on the road, first with his parents and then with his wife, Freda, and his own family, trying to maintain his traditional way of life. He was a man to whom fairness mattered and he despised prejudice and injustice in any form.

Elic, along with many others from the Gypsy Traveller community, was well acquainted with misunderstanding and discrimination. It was such experiences that made him determined to work towards redressing the balance and he became a passionate advocate and activist for his community. He treated everyone as an equal, had no time for posturing and pretension and was very quick to pick up on it.

Elic made a significant contribution to the Scottish Government's Strategic Working Group on Gypsy Travellers. He was particularly concerned about issues such as accommodation and recognition of Gypsy Travellers as an ethnic minority in Scotland. He lobbied MPs, local and national, and he became a force to be reckoned with and could debate with anyone for hours to prove a point if he thought he was right.

One of the things that angered him most was how Gypsy Travellers were portrayed by the media and he would grab every opportunity and invitation to speak about the positive aspects and all that is good about our lifestyle and culture .

Elic truly was a one-off and his passing is a loss not only to our own community but to the many whose lives he touched. He has left a lasting legacy in his family, who will carry on the traditions and heritage he so proudly preserved.

Be assured Elic, wherever you are, there are still, and will continue to be, "Hearts upon The Highway".

Elic is survived by his wife, his sons and grandchildren.
By MARY HENDRY
Born: 22 August, 1949, in Lanark.

Died: 24 December, 2009, in East Kilbride, aged 60.

[kaziah]

Hi Again,
Lovely story about Elic - just shows we must never judge others...

I have more on those burials - I forgot to add the place of death and address in my last message:

Maria Wilshire died at 2 Cathcart Street
David Holmes/Ward died at City Hospital and was of 35 Clarence Street
William Wilshire died at the City Hospital and was of 35 Clarence Street

With the info from last nights message I am trying to work a tree backwards to see if I can find a connection.

Bye again Kazi

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Hi Kazi

 More great bran new information that is in this time the first time that such information as ever passed by my eyes, Sue and Sky have helped me in the past but you have showed me now evan more truth, all three of you have been bringers of truth that as opened my eyes, if you look at this story below would you know if the Smith Girl is of the Nottingham Smiths for i am sure when Henry says

 " My son married this woman's sister " well i am sure he is talking of the Smith girl, do you know of a Ellen Smith who as a Sister who would have married Henry's Son, its just a try by me by reading reports, thank you again for telling me of the information you located, i never new David died in the hospital my Mother telled of a young David who died then Sue and Sky found things for me to back up the old oral talk that i would sit and liston to as my Mother would have long chats with me about life long ago, She says David had a sort of scarf rapped around his neck and was poorly only a little fellow he was, my Mother was just only a child herself but remembers many of those young moments, Sue and Sky found things that i will forever be grateful for and then you come along and just be a sort of nice person, that's not a bad sort of thing to be and do, i think it may help myself to think more on being a better person myself, i will write back if i find another Smith that may connect, you never know but Gipsy George Smith said we was Cousins in his talk to my Mother and i would talk with one of His Daughters and She would say the same, they new the old Romany talk but all the old people now are gone and it doesn't take long for everything to vanish, i learned lots of what they call the Romany words to but in the city all the people of the Gipsy's would be dealing people and you would know of the cant language of the city dealers, when i came along i learned both but thought them as just one language, but how was i to know, then when i met lots of Gipsy people by talking to them on-line over many of these past yeares and reading things well i realised lots of words was old Romany and lots was old cant, it was an eye opener to be able to separate the two and go back in my mind and remember the times they were used.

In this story below it may be the other girl Henry is talking about but Henry knows this Smith Girl there may be a clue in some of the deatail in this story.


Monday 17 september 1934 Nottingham evening post

GENTLEMAN AND HIS LADY FRIENDS.
NOTTM. DRUNKENNESS CHARGE.

 When Henry Wiltshire, 50, hawker, of St. Ann'street, appeared before the magistrates with two women companions at the Nottingham Guildhall to-day, jointly charged with being drunk and disorderly in Milton-street on Saturday night, he declared himself to be a "gentleman," and took it upon himself the full blame for the lapse of the women. The women were Ellen Smith, 27, and Rose Ann Stranther, 40. Referring to one of them, Wiltshire declared :" My son married this woman's sister, and I had not seen this girl for a few years. They are here through me getting them drunk. "Its my fault." The Bench however, imposed fines. Wiltshire and Smith were fined the higher amounts

[kaziah]

Hi,
The names do not ring any bells for me at the moment...  But I don't yet know all the names of the people - I will look more into it tomorrow.

You said you met the daughters of Gypsy George Smith, do you remember their names?  Other than Ellen Hetty Smith and Esmerelda Smith I'm struggling. 

We'll all have lots of new information to work with next year when the 1921 census is released.

Kazi

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Kazi

  You have done great, well done i thank you so much for the information you showed me, you do not have to do any more you have given me enough for two life times, i will try to find information in the storeys that we have found over the years i have wrote them down before in several threads so i will see if i can find them again and put them on here so you will be able to see them all in one go, look at this below Joseph is Sky's Granddad or Gr Grandad i think and would be a Uncle i think of some sorts to my Mother or Cousin maybe, but the strange thing was i showed Sky this story long ago and i wanted her to think of the Smith connection but she never said anything, i do not think she picked up on what i wanted her to see, the story tells of Joseph being related to these Smiths, why Sky never said anything i do not know, i think She relies more on the census and legal notes that most Genealogy people think of as concrete answers, also the story below the first one is about Gipsy's fighting in Nottingham a good read the article in full and the new place names where some of them stayed like White Horse Field which i have not known of, the Smiths in the article i am sure connect to old old George Gipsy Smith, i have offten wrote about Red Lion Street Narrow Marsh everyone of the old ones are connected to that place in one time or another, like Keswick street they are all demolished now but i know every step where they are in this day i will show you maps another time to help you, there is no need now to help me no more for you have done for me a great deed and i would not like to trouble you no more, thank you again Kazi i will write another time when i get everything together for you, it may be a few months but i will look for what i have found and see if there is more of anything, old Gipsy George Smith that my Mother new as a relative of some sorts from the older times had a George and a Sidney and one of his Daughters was Jane Janey Janis from what i remember Janis was a real nice person and evan in this day if ever i chance to meet Her we have a hug, Her Mam and Dad are long gone now they must come from one of the older Smiths round Nottingham, we are all from the Sneinton way like the old old old Smiths that i have offten wrote about, good Luck to you Kazi you done good by me i will write back later i promise maybe i will not find no more but at least you will see the things i did find, 

michael



A DERBY DISTURBANCE. NOTTM.
                           HAWKER HIS WEALTHY SONS-IN-LAW.
 
Saturday 17 June 1916
 Nottingham Evening Post
   Nottinghamshire

A  melee in the Derby Cattle Market on Friday, in which prisoner was rescued from custody and a constable had to make use of his staff, had a sequel at the police-court to-day. Joseph Wiltshire, hawker, 6, Gedling-street, Nottingham, was fined 10s.  assaulting Pc. Bristow, and for assaulting Special Constable H. A. Wallace (market  superintendent), whom he struck several times on the face and body; while Alfred Smith, dealer,  living in a van at Cotton-lane, was fined 7s. 6d. for fighting. Bristow apprehended Smith and his antagonist, whereupon Wiltshire (the father-in-law of the men) and others intervened and succeeded in getting one of the prisoners away. Wiltshire then ran off, but was stopped by Mr. Wallace who told the Bench that Wiltshire made a mad struggle for freedom. Wiltshire, against whom there were eight previous convictions. including one for police assault, stated that  his sons-in-law had a lot of money in their possession and was afraid they would be robbed.

  Friday 27 December 1929
   Nottingham Evening Post
     Nottinghamshire
extract
POLICE COURT ECHOES OF CHRISTMAS. PEOPLE CHARGED IN NOTTINGHAM. SCRAP BETWEEN GIPSIES BRIDLESMITH-GATE. The Christmas festivities had echo at Nottingham Guildhall to-day,   two gangs of gipsies, who started fighting in Bridle-Smith-Gate on Christmas Eve, were summoned to appear, they were: George William Welbourne,18, living in a caravan Cromford-avenue. Carlton; Sidney Smith,18. of Red Lion-street; John Lee, 21. caravan dweller Wollaton Park; and Alfred Smith, 25, of Barker-gate, William Holland, 22 Red Lion-street; Thomas Albert, Smith, 34, Red Lion-street .Clara English 22 Red Lion Street John Lee, White Horse field Wollaton

[kaziah]

Thank you for the info,  I will add it to my collection...  I do have all the old Alan Godfrey maps of  Nottingham from around 1900, and have spent many hours using them in my research, they were all very close together.

I will continue to add new info as I find it, and hopefully it will be of use to someone now or in the future.

I will keep on the trail of all the characters, and also investigate Gypsy George’s 2 brothers who also lived in Nottingham at the time, I know one of them married I to the Stanley family, and someone else the Bacon family and also the Smiths!

No rush for the info, in your own time.  In the meantime I will order another certificate to help progress the search, and hopefully jog memories.

Stay safe and thanks you.
Kazi

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 Kazi

 did you ever get to learn anything about the Bacons, i tried my best to find everything i could for them, they are stated as coming up from the South and living over at Selston, from reading your posts i think you said one of Old old Gipsy George Smiths brothers William went around as William Bacon for i found him with that as a alias, then you said the Smiths and Bacons are related then on my dna i have Smith cousins related to the Grays with the Bacon's and Smiths in their family tree, i would like to know if you found out who the Bacons are i found large amounts i wrote it all up here

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=803537.msg6616171#msg6616171

if you do not know anything just do not write back, read all the storeys thoe that i found on the link above, i wonder if it was William over at Hawthorne street on that camping ground when that thomson said of them as so-called, i wonder if that was William Smith and who are the Bacon's from the South.