Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher

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  Hi

  I found  William Baillie who died in 1724 on the profile page of my dna match who as the Gipsy ancestry from the South, William Baillie known as the Captain was stated as being from Scotland so there now is the connection you was looking for, this below is the writings in a book that contains many reference's to the Baillies and how the name is spelt several ways, just read the whole book or just go to the back and in the index it shows you the page numbers that you can just read that refers to the Baillies, so use this if you do not like the thought of reading the whole book.


Scottish Gypsies under the Stewarts
by
 
MacRitchie, David, 1851-1925

 Page 111-112
 The acknowledged leader of the Baillie tribe in the latter part of the seventeenth century, and until his death in 1724, was the celebrated " Captain William Baillie."

https://archive.org/details/scottishgypsies00macrgoog/page/n122/mode/2up

My dna match   Deniece  as a Grandmother  named lemataney Matthews Mitcham, Surrey, England
1910–1996 r.i.p who's Mother was Lemataney Smith Mitcham, Surrey, England
 1887–1969 who's Mother was Lemataney Gardner Carshalton, Surrey, England
 1864–1948 and if you go down the Mathews line they wed to Cinnamentia Sinamentey Limmenta (Senna) Cinderella Cooper Epsom, Surrey, England
1865–1943

Also  Deniece writes under the title Family tree these names below on the world map of her ancestors,


Agnes Baillie
1803–1879
Borthwick, Midlothian, Scotland


John Baillie
1769–
Borthwick, Midlothian, , Scotland


Captain William Baillie
1661–1724
Hardingtoun Robertoun, Clackmannan, Scotland

 
John Baillie
1730–1790
Canonbie, Dumfriesshire, Scotland


Mathew Baillie
1694–
Midlothian, Scotland


Matthew Baillie
1710–1816
Midlothian, Scotland


I only can see the first few lines of the Family tree above so do not know how the Baillies connect, Deniece states through her writings that they are all in her Family tree, how this comes to be i do not know, so Gipsy's from Scotland and Gipsy's from England could be in some way in the one Family tree, there is much more information in Deniece profile, I have just kept this short to focus on what you were looking for, Surrey is near to Kent and I am sure many of the other names on this tree will connect to all the Gipsy Family's of the South, just to had I share two dna matches with the Lady named Deniece, one looks to be a Bailey Wharton from America if I am reading things right, they then go on through there own names to rematch to me a great many of the well known Gipsy names that I have spoke of before including another male Bailey that i match to, again from America, I hope I have read things right and I have tried here to put things down in a right true manner, it does look to me that these Baillies from Scotland are in the same Family tree  that contain many of the English Gipsy names above, this is what I am reading through a stated dna match to me, i have tried to transcribe everything in a true manner, I hope this information may be of help to you, i do not know if the Baillies from the book are the same as the Baillie's in the Family tree of my dna match above but it looks hopfull through the name of the "Captain William Baillie" and the year of his death 1724, the Family tree and the book share this information its up to you to read into such things and decide for yourself.

michael   

[kr236rk]

Thanks Michael,

Is Deneice on Ancestry please?

My dna match   Deniece  as a Grandmother  named lemataney Matthews Mitcham, Surrey, England
1910–1996 r.i.p who's Mother was Lemataney Smith Mitcham, Surrey, England
 1887–1969 who's Mother was Lemataney Gardner Carshalton, Surrey, England
 1864–1948 and if you go down the Mathews line they wed to Cinnamentia Sinamentey Limmenta (Senna) Cinderella Cooper Epsom, Surrey, England
1865–1943

I have in my tree a Sentenniah / Cinderella Cooper [1808–1875]
BIRTH 18 DEC 1808 • Long Bredy, Dorset
DEATH 20 OCT 1875 • 87 Randle St, St Peters, Plymouth, Devon, England, I wonder if there is a relation to your Cinderella Cooper?

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    on Denieces profile that she lets me see she states this


Direct ancestors with the surname Baillie
From DENIECE  ….. tree:
 
Agnes Baillie
1803–1879

Captain William Baillie
1661–1724

John Baillie
1730–1790

John Baillie
1769–

Mathew Baillie
1694–

Matthew Baillie
1710–1816

Direct ancestors with the surname Cooper
From DENIECE ….. tree:
 
 Cooper

Cinnamentia Sinamentey Limmenta (Senna) Cinderella Cooper
1865–1943

Edward Wendon Cooper
1804–1886

George Cooper
1815–1890

Mary Cooper
1847–

Matthias Cooper
1750–

Spicer (Uriah) Cooper
1815–1882

William Cooper
1791–1837

So you see the coopers and the Baillies are Denieces direct ancestors, there are more Gipsys than the Coopers I just put them on to show you the names, they may match to the Coopers you know,  I will look in my dna Cooper matches to see if I can find a link to the Coopers in your tree

michael

[kr236rk]

   
 Cooper

Matthias Cooper
1750–

michael

Thanks, I have a

Matthias COOPER White (c1810)
1810–1900
BIRTH 1810 • Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
DEATH 21 SEP 1900 • Workhouse, Guildford, Surrey, England.

Obviously related, by the name - but a different branch of the (Windsor?) Coopers?

[kr236rk]

    on Denieces profile that she lets me see she states this


Direct ancestors with the surname Baillie
From DENIECE  ….. tree:
 
Agnes Baillie
1803–1879

I lightly DNA-match a Fiona Glass who has this Baillie in her Ancestry tree:-

Agnes Baillie

B: Feb 1801 Temple, Midlothian

D: 05 Dec 1874 Bothwick, Midlothian, Scotland

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I just wanted to show you this dna match to me that contains a Cooper, she herself comes out of the Lowthers plus i share four dna matches with this match named Lesley, they are two Boswell males with the same Christain name but i can see they are different people, plus Big Jack from America who as the champions of ancestry, and finally a Female whose Granparents are Smiths and Lees on one side, her Parents she does not give any name to, there is much to learn from the information contained in the Cousin sequence, it may be many years in the future before such truth is known but we can only learn of such things in our own life times and think of these things, you would not of ever known of the Lowthers, they connect to the Wilshers- Wiltshires who I connect to, I am only a bit of a scrag end as regards Gipsy ancestry yet I to am free to learn as everyone who learns deems themselves fit, the Lowthers are in storeys with the Wilshers over the Yorkshire way and evan my own place of Sneinton, they get up to all sorts of goings on,  I understand all these goings, and love to read of the past peoples life's at all times I respect everyone of the long dead.


Lesley 
Manchester, Lancashire, England
 
Lesley  Mother was Brenda  1936–1982  r.i.p Manchester, Lancashire, Brenda's Mother was Donah Priscilla Lowther 1906–1987 Bury, Lancashire, Donas Mother was Lavina Lovell 1881–1910  Bury Lancaster, Donna's Father was George Lowther 1881–1958 Halifax, Yorkshire, Lavina's Father was George Lovell 1833– Elmstone Hardwicke, Gloucestershire, Lavina's Mother was Genti (Jenty) Cooper 1848– Wolverhampton, Staffordshire.

All this above in Lesley's open Tree that just shows you a few generations to help you see if there is a connection, then you may write to your dna match and ask to learn more, if they like you, you then are allowed to join their group.

Also on the world map that Lesley shows freely are more names in her tree but not the branch.

Major Lovell
1779–1853
Weldon, Northamptonshire

Isabella Smith
1816–1890
Solihull, Warwickshire

George Lovell
1810–1879
Longborough, Gloucestershire 


So you see how Gipsy's are connected through Family's and location, I think through dna you may follow and learn about Family's through the clusters that are plain to see if you look into the thousands of dna Cousin matches that everyone holds, also now there may be certain Family's that Criss cross Britain more than others and my own dna shows also how certain Family's Criss crossed evan oceans, it has been a great learning to learn of such things, the Coopers I do not know anything about but I have come to learn you will find them in many trees that span the globe, i have several direct down the line born and bred Coopers who dna match to me, how i come to share dna with Coopers born in this day saying we share a far off common ancestor i do not know, there is a link in some form what it meens in truth only the times of the future may reveal, now when I engage with people on the internet I just talk to words, through this meetings of words I learn of many words, by being a person who aligns to words may sound selfish yet it is the truth for through this meeting it allows me to send forth my own words of my teachings from the heart of learning, which is my soul time goal in the art of such learning, people try and project words but the words reveal their truth that projectiles are but sent words having their own meanings through letters that fall and form, i do not see people but feel into their words this reveals that which can not be thrown, I do thank everyone though, to take the time to engage in whatever agenda allows much breath to be breathed in the spoken word, all words may be read, all words may be spoken, some people hide away their words in the dark cell prisoned in thought, how would you define the word selfish then, such people believe they are the jailer of words and  grasp hard the key in such tight nit rope hands, but why do they not see they themselves are looking out from the inner cell as they believe and think that they stare at you confined in the prison deep in truth it is them surrounded by iron bars forged in great darkness by the metal smith whose blinded hammer as sounded our world since man began from words forged in light that truth alights yet in hidden minds why themselves would they take such things to the grave deep for how great the cell thoughts of jailers yet no words weeps for them but sing loud the song of freedom as the bird whistles above the tomb for the  flower risers in everyday yet the flower seeks water as do words seek speech

[kr236rk]

Thanks Michael,

These are predominantly northern family branches. I have a match to Lancashire Boswells and West Bromwich Romany Smiths, but that's probably because they had relatives in Kent - Chatham area seems to have been very popular with Traveller folk in the 19th century and earlier.

Do you have a Gedmatch number please, to see if we are related at all - even distantly?

Best regards.

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Janey i few posts back asked me that, i still do not know what ged match is, i guess its to find people in a near tree who through dna are relatives, you can just freely ask me anything if you wish, do you seak any information, i have not done a gedmatch, who knows maybe one day i will.

michael 

[kr236rk]

Thanks Michael,

Where is this Lesley tree please?

Is there a link to it - or the name of the site where it can be found?

I just wanted to show you this dna match to me that contains a Cooper, she herself comes out of the Lowthers plus i share four dna matches with this match named Lesley, they are two Boswell males with the same Christain name but i can see they are different people, plus Big Jack from America who as the champions of ancestry, and finally a Female whose Granparents are Smiths and Lees on one side...

'Big Jack' is Jack Pearce?

My paper-trail cousin in NZ has matches to Jack Pearce, my cousin is a FRY, I don't know how he matches Jim though - the Frys have Kent UK ancestry.