Rayners and Abbotts

[Daonnachd]

On another thread altogether one or two experienced Rootschatters said they liked a mystery, so here's my biggest one!

Its focused around my Great-grandmother Lily.

I have reason to believe Lily was born either Eliza or Ellen Rayner to David and Hannah Rayner in West Ham about 1865.

Lily married John Charles Abbott at St James the Great in Bethnal Green, in 1887. Lily's age is stated as 21 (making her born about 1866, and John Charles age is 22, making him born about 1865). The record also states her father's name as David Rayner - occupation Carman - which is how he appears on the census records I have for the family.

Then Lily disappears, but John doesn't!
He turns up in court records, and ends up in out of jail - under the name Abbott, and an alias - Gayner, for breaking and entering, assaulting a police officer etc. etc.

But I can't find Lily anywhere, under 'Lily' 'Eliza' or 'Ellen'. Nor can I find her parents David & Hannah Rayner. David's death is registered in West Ham 1895, but Hannah is still a mystery.

Jump to 1901 and Lily is living with 'husband' Alfred Williams with their children,
Alfred 5, Albert 3, & George 1. they have a further 2 sons, William Henry, and Arthur George. (They  had another child in 1894 - Arthur - who died in infancy).

Alfred is the registered father to all these children, with Lily's maiden name stated as Rayner - no mention of previously being an 'Abbott'.

I also can't find a divorce or annulment record for Lily and John Abbott, or a marriage record between her and Alfred Williams.

Jump to 1911 Lily is living with the above children, and listed as 'widowed'. But also living with a 'Boarder' 'Jack' Abbott, who is about the right age to be her husband John Charles!

I've yet to find Alfred's death record, there were a quite a lot of Alfred Williams's in the area at the time, and have yet to find the right one.

There's a lot of questions here, but my big main question is where were Lily Rayner/Abbott, David Rayner (born abt 1833 in Norfolk) and Hannah Rayner (b abt 1843 in Maldon) in 1891?

There are various Lily Rayners, Hannah Rayners, and Ellen Rayners around Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk where the family originally came from, but either they appear to be different people, or I can't categorically determine whether they are the right people.

Any ideas would be very much appreciated!
 



 

[richardanthony]

ELIZA RAYNER,       mothers maiden name SEAMAN     

GRO Reference: 1864  D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION  Volume 04A  Page 19

james rayner married    harriett seaman in wisbeach 1843

[richardanthony]

do you have the 1871 census results for them

[richardanthony]

i found them in 1871 as david hannah etc info free on freecen

[richardanthony]

Births Mar 1841
RAYNER   David       St Faiths   13   108
The district St Faiths is in the county of Norfolk;

[Daonnachd]

do you have the 1871 census results for them

Hi,

yes I have 1871, and the 1861 for David and Hannah before that, and even managed to dig out records for David in Norfork, but that was actually a bit of a palaver!

Yes I have the birth records of Eliza and Ellen, so have Hannah's maiden name. David and Hannah had other children too -

Elizabeth born 1862 died 1864

John born 1867 died 1874

William Henry born 1869 died 1914

David born 1873 (by 1901 had married Maria Capes, and had children the last one I know about born 1906).
Charlotte Jane born 1875 - and she disappears after 1881 when she is recorded as 'Jane'.

Another child is listed in the 1881 census - Bertie born 1880 - and he disappears too. I'm not convinced that he is David and Hannah's child though, as I can't find registered birth for a Bertie or Albert whose mother's name is Seaman. Besides which he is recorded as being born in Baker Street, not West Ham.

To be honest I'm not sure which registration district Baker Street would come under, I thought Marylebone? but can't find his birth reg there.

The BIG question for me is where did they all go after Lily married John Abbott in 1887??? One of the witnesses is a H. Rayner, which MAY be Lily's mum Hannah.

David must have been in the West Ham area in 1895 to have his death registered in West Ham, but I can't find him anywhere between 1881 and 1895.

Thank you richardanthony, and thanks to everyone else for your interest. The search goes on 

Lindsey