Author Topic: Jewish birth record Berlin  (Read 828 times)

Offline CorinStone

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #18 on: Friday 31 August 18 21:37 BST (UK) »
Let me say this...Marianne was not single... Michael was not illegitimate. Marianne and Alexander were together as a couple, they just did not marry. I don't like the nuances associated with the terminology offered. Incredibly dated.

I have no idea where anything was registered or recorded hence why I am here

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Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 01 September 18 09:49 BST (UK) »
There are no nuances attached to the terms legitimacy (German: ehelich) or illegitimacy (unehelich). They merely define the legal status of children born in or out of wedlock. Whether we like it or not, it was (and still is) a factor in determining a child's citizenship or nationality. The concept may seem outdated, but we are dealing with events that took place nearly 100 years ago.

Under British law, my own paternal grandfather, the son of a Jewish German man and an English woman, was not legally British until his father became a naturalised British citizen in 1900.

The law in force in 1922 (Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz of 1913) granted German citizenship to the children of a German father and his wife. The wife's citizenship was irrelevant. Uneheliche Kinder (illegitimate children) acquired the citizenship of the mother. This situation remained unchanged until the 1960s.

It would be very interesting to know why they did not marry, to understand the societies of Vienna and Berlin in the wake of WWI. Alexander and Marianne clearly resisted any societal pressure to marry. Maybe there were no such pressures.

According to the German version of Wikipedia, Alexander was regarded as stateless following the outbreak of WWI, and was actually interned from 1916 until the end of the war. The article goes on to say that his statelessness meant that he was unable to obtain the necessary papers to emigrate in 1938 following Germany's annexation of Austria.

So under the prevailing German law in 1922, Michael too may have been regarded as stateless if his parents had been married. Maybe this very fact explains why Alexander and Marianne did not marry.








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Offline whiteout7

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 01 September 18 10:26 BST (UK) »
Their marital status is much more irrelevant than the parent citizenships?

If Marianne Kuh had her son registered in Vienna as born to her, that would be an absolute bonus. Why wouldn't you investigate it? He would possibly be recorded in Germany at the registry office and then again in records in Vienna.

Why was Alexander Solomonica not granted a Visa to England in 1939 with the rest of the family? Possibly because he was considered a Romanian National by birth and Romania was supplying goods to the Axis forces.

Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 01 September 18 13:02 BST (UK) »
Michael's parents marital status determined which, if any, citizenship he was deemed to have acquired at birth. As subsequent tragic events show, he was lucky to have been deemed to acquire the Austrian citizenship of his mother.

Anti-semitism was enshrined in the Romanian constitution of 1866. A further revision in 1879, made it impossible for Jews to become Romanian citizens unless they converted to Christianity. Tens of thousands of Jews had emigrated before WWI

So Alexander was stateless, i.e. no state recognised him as its citizen. I cannot find any further details about the difficulties he encountered in his attempts to leave Vienna, but in simple terms he did not have and could not obtain a passport. Statelessness is an issue to this day.

I see no reason why Marianne would register Michael's birth in Vienna 11 years later.

Offline CorinStone

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 01 September 18 15:49 BST (UK) »
I never considered their lack of marriage for that reason before... Makes a lot of sense and could be a big part of it.

Both their family's were very political and enjoyed fighting societal pressures or expectations. I thought they were just way a head of the times. The statelessness could have been a big part of it.

Alexander refused to fight in the war. He lost his citizenship and was interned. Unfortunately when they were in Vienna Alexander could not get any paper work to leave for England. He was trapped. Michael saw his dad being captured by the Nazis but was lucky to escape. Michael got on to kinder transport though he was to old. He stowed away under a seat.

Offline JustinL

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 01 September 18 17:31 BST (UK) »
I knew there would be a very interesting, if not harrowing, story about his escape.

How did Marianne get out?

I would say that they were very much a product of their time and their Jewish background. They were part of the Viennese intelligentsia.

Offline CorinStone

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 01 September 18 17:39 BST (UK) »
Actually I don't know how Marriane got out... Will ask my mum and see if she knows. I believe Sophie escaped through Denmark before England and became a nurse in the English Army.

Very much part of the viennese intelligentsia which as an English guy I find fascinating.Marrianes brother Anton was a political satarist, Sophies dad Otto Gross was a psychoanalyst and friend of Carl Jung. Alexander a writer. Lots of interesting stuff that pulled me into the family research


Offline CorinStone

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 01 September 18 22:07 BST (UK) »
Marianne was sponsored by the Van Leers- Jewish diamond merchants- and went to live with them in Welwyn Garden City as their housekeeper.  Sophie made the contact some how.

Do you know why people had to be sponsored?

Offline whiteout7

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Re: Jewish birth record Berlin
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 02 September 18 11:25 BST (UK) »
Sounds like they were sponsered for financial reasons as they arrived with nothing ...

"I think it was extremely courageous of Wim van Leer, as a Jew, to enter Germany at that murderous time, and to negotiate with the Gestapo" Wim van Leer owned an engineering business in Welwyn Garden City"

http://www.ourwelwyngardencity.org.uk/content/topics/wartime/wwii/jewish-refugees-come-to-welwyn-garden-city

Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)