Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT

[wivenhoe]

Are you using information that is passed to you by another researcher?

It would be really useful to sort out the information, the better to work with it. No information is better than misinformation. Your statements, and my comments / questions -

"Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867"

"She was bought up in cobborah/dubbo in the family of john knipe and mary bramhall."

You  have no information about people involved in Hellen's life, or locations she might have lived in, before her marriage, 1892, when Hellen gives her birthplace as Kiama.

"Hellen's birthday was in the family bible and it aligns with her age at marriage."

"the bible entry - which is just "Gran 14 Aug" and then someone has added 1866 next to it. "

The entry in the bible is Ellen SUTTTON 1866.....later notated to include...... nee GRANT.

"I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904."
You have a photocopy of a photograph, and not useful to place here because of poor definition. How have you identified people in the photo to be Mary and Hellen, and the year to be 1904? If another researcher has this photo you need to ask them about these details.

"Mary (KNIPE) was in Dubbo until 1913"
How do you know this and what happened in 1913?

"The birthdate came from my G'mother's birthday book  14 Aug"
If you have the birthday book it would be useful to see the image. Do you have the book?

You have a studio portrait photo, taken in Orange, of a woman, and the word "Gran" has been written on the back. And you do not have a name for this woman.

[jma09]

Are you using information that is passed to you by another researcher? No, this is the first time anyone has researched it.  I am however, using my grandmother's stories. photos and her birthday book to fill in the gaps.  My Grandmother is Eileen, Hellen's daughter

"Hellen and her father moved up to Mudgee and then Cobborah, NSW in 1867" No evidence as such although there was AG in Cobbora in 1869-70 (from electoral roll)

"She was bought up in cobborah/dubbo in the family of john knipe and mary bramhall."  Grandmother's story

You  have no information about people involved in Hellen's life, or locations she might have lived in, before her marriage, 1892, when Hellen gives her birthplace as Kiama.  True, except from my Grandmother.  Hopefully once I have been through the forum's wonderful advice I will have more.

"I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904."
You have a photocopy of a photograph, and not useful to place here because of poor definition. How have you identified people in the photo to be Mary and Hellen, and the year to be 1904? If another researcher has this photo you need to ask them about these details.
  Not possible unfortunately, the photo was copied by me about 1980s from another cousin who has since died.
"Mary (KNIPE) was in Dubbo until 1913" How do you know this and what happened in 1913?  1911 Census and Electoral rolls.  She went to Sydney to stay with Oscar so I suspect she was too old to look after herself alone.

"The birthdate came from my G'mother's birthday book  14 Aug" If you have the birthday book it would be useful to see the image? Attached

You have a studio portrait photo, taken in Orange, of a woman, and the word "Gran" has been written on the back. And you do not have a name for this woman.  The women is Hellen Sutton.  The Gran was written by Eileen, so she was identifying her mother.

All of the "unsure" bits are from Eileen (my grandmother), as a line of research I don't have any other until I can disprove her.  Which as we know I am still yet to prove or not prove her stories.  Or do I?

[majm]

i am finding some confusing information, but I will share it here, now.

1913, NSW Electoral Roll Ellen Elizabeth SUTTON and John Thomas SUTTON are shown on the NSW ER 1913, as at the Showground, Dubbo.  He, a carpenter.  NO others with that address by the surname Sutton. 
1913 ER prepared after writs called for NSW general elections.  Writs called 6 November. 

1913, NSW electoral roll Oscar Abraham KNIPE, Barney St Parramatta, a warder. Also with same surname, Mary, Barney St, home duties and Mary, senior, Barney St, home duties.   There are several electors on that Parramatta roll with surname SUTTON, but none named Ellen Elizabeth or John Thomas.

I am interested in learning about the 1869 Roll you mention and the 1911 Census too. 

I have the hardcopy of the particular 1870 NSW electoral roll at hand.  I have the CD for the 1913 NSW roll, and I have paper copy of the 1902 roll.

Ancestry and FindMyPast likely have uploaded the 1903-4 roll and the 1913 roll.   I have no knowledge of a NSW census document giving names and identifying detail about any NSW residents. 

ADD, I will continue to look for Mary KNIPE (senior) in Dubbo circa 1900-1913) 

JM

[jma09]

Hi peoples who have helped me ..

I have received the certificate for one of Hellen's kids - Edna. (see attached)

The certificate says that Hellen was 31 in 1898 (b.1867), and that she was born in Kiandra.  The witness was Mrs Knipe  (and as Mary Knipe was a midwife) I am going to call  Ellen Sutton b.1860 in Cooma to Abraham and Betsy Grant as the person I have been looking for.

Do my helpers think this is the case even though the docs consistently say she was born in 1866/7?

If these are my people then it looks like Betsy died in Forbes in 1862. Abraham arrived back in Jersey in 1874 to a family who had already declared him dead!

Janine

[jma09]

 majm

"..am interested in learning about the 1869 Roll you mention and the 1911 Census"

The supplementary Electoral roll for Bogan in 1869/70 came from the Mitchell Library (the link on the digitised transcription is dead). (see attached page) and sorry I meant 1901 Census not 1911.
Cheers and thanks  J

[wivenhoe]

If you are interested to pursue the possible connection between Mary Ann KNIPE and your Hellen SUTTON, the death certificate of Mary KNIPE would be useful.

Children listed on her death certificate might lead to a connection between your Hellen GRANT and other children born to Mary. Given that Oscar is registered as BRAMHALL would suggest that Mary is not living with husband John?.

You might expect that an ageing Mary KNIPE might stay in Dubbo to be cared for by Hellen GRANT. Adult daughters usually looked after ageing parents.

I suspect that any GRANT - KNIPE association is not quite as family stories might suggest.

And, how have you attached names and date to the photo.........Hellen and Mary, 1904. Otherwise all you have is a blurred image of a photo you copied 40 years ago.

I think this birth record would be worth a closer look for age and birthplace of mother, birthplace of Lila, and name of informant.

12895 / 1883 GRANT  Lila M 12895/1883 parents - / Ellen  @  Dubbo

[wivenhoe]

I would certainly be encouraged to see your Hellen to be the 1860 birth.  The 1862 death of Betsy GRANT, Forbes also looks good, and worth a closer look.

Abraham arriving back in Jersey, 1874....I think I missed that one. Where are you seeing that?.

[majm]

Kiandra ... yes, births there would have been registered in Cooma, you will find that the NSW BDM online index drills down to 10 July, 1860 ... so that's different from the birthday book entry by the date/month, as well as the year....  I wonder if the birthday book actually has the date of baptism ... just speculating of course... but as an aside, my Auntie Mary always celebrated a particular date from 1909 as her birthday, and until I checked all her papers for her, so too did her siblings and off spring etc ... All of them had been celebrating the date of her christening ... she was actually nine weeks older ... We sorted it in time for her 100th  and she got TWO celebrations that year, as a surprise treat. 

Socially, in the 1880s and 1890s ladies often gave their age as though they were the same or younger than their husbands, so I see nothing unusual in the 1895 birth cert info that John gave about himself, his wife, and their children on Edna's birth cert.  The info was given verbally, and recorded in a ledger facing the clerk, who likely turned the large ledger around and simply said "sign here' when the entry had been recorded. 

Many thanks for confirming the 1869 electoral roll, and thanks for clearing up that Census ref, all of us likely have troublesome keyboards that specialise in making typos just to trick those reading the info. 

The 1862 d.c. may well name Abraham and Betsey's children and give their ages ... but if you are ordering, please do consider the official transcriptions ... you will have pennies left over for further NSW bdm records to further your quest ...

JM