Author Topic: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville  (Read 1624 times)

Offline johneowens

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Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« on: Thursday 06 September 18 11:55 BST (UK) »
    I've started a new post since the existing Labour Corps-WW1 forum seems to be a little crowded.

    I am trying to trace the war "route" of the husband of my grandmother's sister, Kazia Esther "Cassie" (nee Allen) who married Mark Royell "Roy" McConville (b.7 Sep 1887) on Christmas day 1916 in Liverpool as a possible explanation as to why Cassie is recorded in about September 1917 as a nurse/doctor's assistant at the Rochford Hospital, Essex, which is a long way away from Liverpool. Cassie subsequently died nearby in Essex aged 33 in the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic.

    The only military records for Roy I have found on Ancestry are from the Medals Index (no date), which shows:
(King's?) Liverpool Regiment Pte 78408
Labour Corps 53690

I keyed both of these numbers into the Liverpool Museum's website for the Liverpool Regiment, but no joy.

Somewhere, I have picked up that the 23rd Infantry (Works) Battalion converted into 1st Labour Battalion of the Labour Corps, but this information may be irrelevant.

It may help to know that, before they were married, both Cassie and Roy had previous experiences as asylum nurses at Winwick Mental Asylum/Hospital, Winwick, Lancs.

Admittedly, all this is a bit of long shot but any help with Roy's war "journey" appreciated. Presumably, since he apparently received a medal, he was assigned to France.

 In anticipation, many thanks.

Best wishes

John


Owens-Swansea/Wallasey/Garston,L’pool
Jones-Erbistock/Widnes
Allen-Tetsworth/Hoole/Runcorn/St.Helens/Iowa/Kansas/Nebraska
Yieveley/Yevily/Everley/Heviley-Little Ness,Salop/Oldbury/St Helens/Garston,L'pool
Davies-Holywell,Garston,L'pool
Ithel-Bagilt,Mold
Fletcher-Rainhill/Widnes
Hughes-Marchwiel,Bangor-Is-Coed,Denbs
Thomas-Oswestry, Salop/Liverpool
Cole-Cliffe Peppard/Lyneham, Wilts
Frawley-Rathkeale, Co. Limerick
Conway-Coolanoran,Co.Limerick
Dinneen-Ballingarry,Co. Limerick

Offline jim1

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 06 September 18 13:36 BST (UK) »
You are correct (sort of). His LC number was allocated to the 25th. KLIR which became the 90th. Coy. LC. on it's formation in 1917.
There's quite a good snapshot of the 90th. here:
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/638-90th-labour-company/
All of the below are where the 90th. operated. These can all be found South of Arras roughly in the area of Cambrai.
FAVREVIL (Favreuil), FREMICOURT, FINS, NURLU, PERONNE, VOYENNES, CANIZY, ROYE, CARRE-PUITS, CAMON, LONGEAU, VECQUEMONT, LE CATEAU.
I take no credit for the above as this is John Starling's research from his book No Labour No Battle.
FAVREVIL (Favreuil) (H.16)>FREMICOURT-(I.25) on below map.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465155
FINS (V.12) on this map:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465206
NURLU (D.4):
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465290
PERRONNE (I.27):
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465278
VOYENNES (J.7/8):>CANIZY (J.28)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465353
ROYE (M.27): (ignore the German trench systems this is a 1916 map. They were gone by 1918. I couldn't find a better map).
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465356
CARRE-PUITS: Don't know where this is.
CAMON: No map but on the outskirts of Amiens.
LONGEAU: See CAMON.
VECQUEMONT: No map but about 14 mls. East of LONGEAU on the R.Somme.
LE CATEAU: (K.34)
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465122


Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline johneowens

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 06 September 18 15:34 BST (UK) »
Wow, Jim. I did not expect all this.

Many many thanks.

KLI, I guess, means King's Light Infantry? Yes?

And 25th means 25th Infantry (Works) Battalion or 25th Labour Company, King’s Liverpool Regiment. Are these the same?

So, if the 90th Labour Company, XIII Corps, 4th Army arrived in France in March 1917 and remained until April 1919, unless Roy was given compassionate leave to attend his wife (did it exist then?) or was sent home after the November 1918 Armistice, he may not have even known she was in hospital and would not have been able to attend her funeral in St. Helens, Lancs, 10 December 1918. Hmm. I'll check with themonsstar on the other post to see whether he has info from the Diary for December 1918. Good work by John Starling, huh?

I've also read elsewhere that the LCs were composed of men who were medically graded unfit for the fighting yet were frequently deployed for work within range of enemy guns, sometimes for lengthy periods, presumably did hard work in those locations, and were sometimes used as emergency infantry. Still, they were typically treated as second class soldiers.

So, to answer my original question, it seems that after Cassie and Roy were married, they opted in different ways to join the war effort. Unfortunately, however, I have no idea when Roy signed up although 29 Mar 17 seems a good bet as that's the date the 25th was formed, presumably in Liverpool.

Any further thoughts, Jim, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again

Best

John



Owens-Swansea/Wallasey/Garston,L’pool
Jones-Erbistock/Widnes
Allen-Tetsworth/Hoole/Runcorn/St.Helens/Iowa/Kansas/Nebraska
Yieveley/Yevily/Everley/Heviley-Little Ness,Salop/Oldbury/St Helens/Garston,L'pool
Davies-Holywell,Garston,L'pool
Ithel-Bagilt,Mold
Fletcher-Rainhill/Widnes
Hughes-Marchwiel,Bangor-Is-Coed,Denbs
Thomas-Oswestry, Salop/Liverpool
Cole-Cliffe Peppard/Lyneham, Wilts
Frawley-Rathkeale, Co. Limerick
Conway-Coolanoran,Co.Limerick
Dinneen-Ballingarry,Co. Limerick

Offline MaxD

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 06 September 18 15:52 BST (UK) »
Jim

I had been looking at this at the same time and can't quite reconcile what I read about the 25th Battalion King's Liverpool Regiment with your "25th. KLI (??) which became the 90th. Coy. LC. on it's formation in 1917.

Everything I consulted has the 25th Battalion formed out of 43rd Provisional Battalion in Jan 1917, in Sheringham and Sidestrand and going to France as a guard battalion in May 1918, joining 59 Bde in Jun 1918.

I did note that 26th Battalion was formed out of 44th Provisional and remained in Essex throughout.

MaxD

I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia


Offline jim1

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 06 September 18 16:01 BST (UK) »
Should read KLR sorry about that.
This is what I'm looking at.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline MaxD

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 06 September 18 16:13 BST (UK) »
From the Museum of Liverpool, which agrees essentially with LLT:

 23rd and 24th (Works) Battalions. Formed May and June 1916. 23rd at Prescot.   In Mar. 1917 at Prescot and Hereford.   April 1917 23rd Bn. became 1st Labour Bn. No record of 24th Bn.  May have become 27th Bn.
 
25th Battalion T.F. On 1.1.17 43rd Provisional Bn. became 25th Bn. at Sheringham in 223rd Bde. 43rd Bn. had been formed in 1915 with Home Service personnel of T.F. Bns.   By July 1917 at Sidestrand.  7.5.18 landed at Calais as a Garrison Guard Bn.  and to 59th Div. at Estree Cauchie.  16.6.18 to 176th Bde. 59th Div.  July 1918 title of Garrison Guard dropped.  11.11.18 176th Bde. 59th Div. Belgium: Velaines N.E. of Tournai.
 
26th Battalion T.F. On 1.1.17 44th Provisional Bn. in 218th Bde. 73rd Div., moving to Kelvedon, Essex, became 26th Bn.  This bn. had been formed in 1915 with Home Service personnel of T.F. Bns.  The 73rd Div. was broken up early in 1918 and the bn. was disbanded at Kelvedon on 29.3.18.
 
27th (Works) Battalion. Could have been renumbering of 24th Bn.  April 1917 became 2nd Labour Bn.
 
27th (Home Service) Battalion. Formed on 27.4.18 at Sidestrand to replace 25th Bn. in 223rd Bde.  Remained at Sidestrand

The nomenclature in the extract is strange 23rd Infantry Labour Company Liverpool etc - is that really the same as 23rd (Works) Battalion King's (Liverpool Regiment)?


MaxD
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline jim1

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 06 September 18 16:26 BST (UK) »
Quote
The nomenclature in the extract is strange 23rd Infantry Labour Company Liverpool etc - is that really the same as 23rd (Works) Battalion King's (Liverpool Regiment)?
My thoughts too.
John Starling says:
Formed as 25th Labour Company King’s Liverpool Regiment
I don't think this is the same as the 25th. T.F. Batt.
They seem very elusive.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline jim1

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 06 September 18 16:35 BST (UK) »
Thinking aloud were these Lab. Coys. part of the Infantry Battalions & hived off to form L.C. Coys.
Maybe given temporary numbers prior to this.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline MaxD

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Re: Labour Corps-WW1: Roy McConville
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 06 September 18 16:48 BST (UK) »
My feeling all along has been that as you have advised in the other similar threads, that without a service record, knowing which Liverpool Bn and then which Labour Corps Company this chap belonged to is not really 100% possible.  His Liverpool number indicates overseas service with them (although we have both seen examples of a Home Service man going overseas with his number but not serving with the regiment once there) .  He could have been 23rd or 24th (later 27th) and transferred to 1 or 2 Battalion Labour Corps but why not for example, any one of the service battalions and then off to some company or another of the Labour Corps. (I put that rhetorically to illustrate the only too well known problem)

Your thinking aloud may be on to something  - more thought - although keeping in mind we might clarify the titles/numbers but we still don't know what Liverpool battalion our man was in!

MaxD
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia