Author Topic: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School  (Read 859 times)

Offline chris_49

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Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« on: Friday 07 September 18 22:25 BST (UK) »
I wonder if you can help me. Although I'm quite experienced at England and Wales FH, this is my first foray into Ireland. Please bear with this long post but I'd like to give all that I have so far.

The problem concerns Elizabeth Nolan born about 1893 who married my great uncle Robert Francis (Frank) Davies in Paddington district in 1928 (a cert that is being sent for). His grandchildren are very interested to know about their grandparents (who they never knew) and forebears - their father, their grandparents' only (surviving) child died recently.

I found Robert Frank and Elizabeth on the 1939 register and all details seem correct - his birth and occupation (bricklayer). Their son is not there, not even redacted - believed evacuated to Ireland. Cissie (as she was known) is given a DoB of 24/4/1893 which is probably about right - she may have underplayed her age being older than her husband, but not by much as she had a child in 1937.

I always knew that Cissie was from the New Ross area but with a vague clue to Glynn, Co Carlow, to which my cousins have added a possibility of Graiguenamanagh. A cousin of their father's generation was over from Canada recently and remembers visiting the family in Ireland a couple of times and swimming in the Barrow, though by that time the family were in Co Wexford (Duncannon was mentioned).

My Canadian cousin knew of only two of Cissie's siblings - a nun, Sister Anthony (clearly not her birth name) and a younger sister Katie who was deaf and dumb, as they said in those days. I know this name can be for Kathleen, Catherine or Caitlin but I hoped that she might be identified by an entry in the disability column of the census.

Katie came to England to live with her sister, and after Cissie died her son and daughter-in-law were about to go and work abroad for some years, so Katie went to live in a home in Essex where she was believed to have died. My best guess for her death is in Colchester district in 1978 as Kathleen Nolan born 15/9/1898 though these details may be wrong if this report was by a non-relative (so Catherine Nolan b1893 died same year and place is not out of the equation) .

There are promising births for Elizabeth (June quarter 1893) and Catherine (Sept 1898) in New Ross district which includes south Carlow, but I despaired of finding them on the 1901 or 1911 census - all entries were much too far north. But I found a good possibility in 1901 - Patrick Nolan 60, his wife Eliza 44, a brother-in-law and 10 children including Lizzie, 8, and Katie - seems to be 4 but there is a smudge and it has been transcribed as 1.

Against this Elizabeth is transcribed Lizzie when she was always Cissie in later life (I always knew this stood for Elizabeth) and for Katie both ages wiould be slightly wrong. There is no entry in the disability column which would not be surprising for a one-yaer-old (they might not have yet known) but would be known for a 4-year-old - and the entry "Cannot Read" would be an odd factoid to put by a one-year-old.

I found the family again in 1911 and many of the children are not there - left home or died - but Katie is one of those missing. (All the others match, assuming Johanna is ""Hannie"). I looked for her elsewhere, and both entries I found are too old at 15, but both cases where the head of household often gets ages wrong. One was a servant in Co Carlow - surely a 13-year old would not be working as such in 1911 - but the other was nore interesting.

A Katie Nolan, 15, born Carlow, no disability given, was a pupil at Goldenbridge Industrial School in Kilmainham in 1911 - in contrast to most of her fellow-pupils who were from Dublin. I've Googled this place and pretty grim it sounds. If it was mainly taking girls from the police courts guilty of begging and theiving, is it likely that a Carlow deaf-and-dumb girl might end up there?

Apology for long post but I know people hate doing look-ups of stuff the OP actually had already. Chris



Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs
Hancox - Warks
Green - Warks
Draper - Warks
Lynes - Warks
Hudson - Warks
Morris - Denbs Mont Salop
Davies - Cheshire, North Wales
Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire
Owens - Cheshire/North Wales
Hicks - Cornwall
Lloyd and Jones (Mont)
Rhys/Rees (Mont)

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Offline chris_49

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Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #1 on: Friday 07 September 18 22:27 BST (UK) »
I wonder if you can help me. Although I'm quite experienced at England and Wales FH, this is my first foray into Ireland. Please bear with this long post but I'd like to give all that I have so far.

The problem concerns Elizabeth Nolan born about 1893 who married my great uncle Robert Francis (Frank) Davies in Paddington district in 1928 (a cert that is being sent for). His grandchildren are very interested to know about their grandparents (who they never knew) and forebears - their father, their grandparents' only (surviving) child died recently.

I found Robert Frank and Elizabeth on the 1939 register and all details seem correct - his birth and occupation (bricklayer). Their son is not there, not even redacted - believed evacuated to Ireland. Cissie (as she was known) is given a DoB of 24/4/1893 which is probably about right - she may have underplayed her age being older than her husband, but not by much as she had a child in 1937.

I always knew that Cissie was from the New Ross area but with a vague clue to Glynn, Co Carlow, to which my cousins have added a possibility of Graiguenamanagh. A cousin of their father's generation was over from Canada recently and remembers visiting the family in Ireland a couple of times and swimming in the Barrow, though by that time the family were in Co Wexford (Duncannon was mentioned).

My Canadian cousin knew of only two of Cissie's siblings - a nun, Sister Anthony (clearly not her birth name) and a younger sister Katie who was deaf and dumb, as they said in those days. I know this name can be for Kathleen, Catherine or Caitlin but I hoped that she might be identified by an entry in the disability column of the census.

Katie came to England to live with her sister, and after Cissie died her son and daughter-in-law were about to go and work abroad for some years, so Katie went to live in a home in Essex where she was believed to have died. My best guess for her death is in Colchester district in 1978 as Kathleen Nolan born 15/9/1898 though these details may be wrong if this report was by a non-relative (so Catherine Nolan b1893 died same year and place is not out of the equation) .

There are promising births for Elizabeth (June quarter 1893) and Catherine (Sept 1898) in New Ross district which includes south Carlow, but I despaired of finding them on the 1901 or 1911 census - all entries were much too far north. But I found a good possibility in 1901 - Patrick Nolan 60, his wife Eliza 44, a brother-in-law and 10 children including Lizzie, 8, and Katie - seems to be 4 but there is a smudge and it has been transcribed as 1, in Balmaha, between Glynn and Graigue

Against this Elizabeth is transcribed Lizzie when she was always Cissie in later life (I always knew this stood for Elizabeth) and for Katie both ages wiould be slightly wrong. There is no entry in the disability column which would not be surprising for a one-year-old (they might not have yet known) but would be known for a 4-year-old - and the entry "Cannot Read" would be an odd factoid to put by a one-year-old.

I found the family again in 1911 and many of the children are not there - left home or died - but Katie is one of those missing. (All the others match, assuming Johanna is ""Hannie"). I looked for her elsewhere, and both entries I found are too old at 15, but both cases where the head of household often gets ages wrong. One was a servant in Co Carlow - surely a 13-year old would not be working as such in 1911 - but the other was nore interesting.

A Katie Nolan, 15, born Carlow, no disability given, was a pupil at Goldenbridge Industrial School in Kilmainham in 1911 - in contrast to most of her fellow-pupils who were from Dublin. I've Googled this place and pretty grim it sounds. If it was mainly taking girls from the police courts guilty of begging and theiving, is it likely that a Carlow deaf-and-dumb girl might end up there?

Apology for long post but I know people hate doing look-ups of stuff the OP actually had already. Chris
Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs
Hancox - Warks
Green - Warks
Draper - Warks
Lynes - Warks
Hudson - Warks
Morris - Denbs Mont Salop
Davies - Cheshire, North Wales
Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire
Owens - Cheshire/North Wales
Hicks - Cornwall
Lloyd and Jones (Mont)
Rhys/Rees (Mont)

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #2 on: Friday 07 September 18 23:37 BST (UK) »



You could try a very loose search of 1901 Census as following, see if you can find them

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/
.
.
.


Offline Sinann

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #3 on: Friday 07 September 18 23:56 BST (UK) »
There is a Kate Nolan in the school for Deaf and Dumb from Kilkenny in Castleknock in 1911 aged 13
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Castleknock/Cabragh/3891/
Graiguenamanagh is in Kilkenny.

Do you know their father's name or are you waiting for the marriage cert?

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 08 September 18 00:02 BST (UK) »
I don't think father's name is known.... "Elizabeth Nolan born about 1893 who married my great uncle Robert Francis (Frank) Davies in Paddington district in 1928 (a cert that is being sent for)."

Offline Sinann

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 08 September 18 00:04 BST (UK) »
I was hopeing the cousin from Canada knew it.

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 08 September 18 00:11 BST (UK) »
There are a couple of returns with a Lizzie and Kate in same household in 1901

e.g  http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Carlow/Glynn/Bahana/1044941/

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 08 September 18 00:22 BST (UK) »

 

I always knew that Cissie was from the New Ross area but with a vague clue to Glynn, Co Carlow




After reading post again as I missed the Glynn bit.... the 1901 census looks a good POSSIBLE.



Offline gaffy

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Re: Irish beginner - and Goldenbridge Industrial School
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 08 September 18 00:47 BST (UK) »

... There are promising births for Elizabeth (June quarter 1893) and Catherine (Sept 1898) in New Ross district which includes south Carlow, but I despaired of finding them on the 1901 or 1911 census - all entries were much too far north. But I found a good possibility in 1901 - Patrick Nolan 60, his wife Eliza 44, a brother-in-law and 10 children including Lizzie, 8, and Katie - seems to be 4 but there is a smudge and it has been transcribed as 1.


Just to post the birth registrations for the ones you mean, born in Bahana just over 3 miles south of Graiguenamanagh...

- Elizabeth Nolan born on 27 April 1893:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02301/1863119.pdf
- Catherine Nolan born on 15 September 1898:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02070/1790736.pdf

Parents Patrick Nolan of Bahana and Elizabeth Murphy of Ballyknock married in Glynn RC Chapel in 1883:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10929/5993198.pdf

Possible baptism for Elizabeth Murphy in St. Mullins RC parish, baptised on 19 November 1856, parents given as Pierce Murphy and Anne Doran of Ballyknock (left page):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634577#page/105/mode/1up

Marriage of Pierce Murphy and Anne Doran took place in Borris RC parish on 3 February 1837 (left page):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634409#page/205/mode/1up

Likely will calendars entry for Pierce Murphy's death (administration case), death registration image not available yet on the 'IrishGenealogy' website, but the index shows a reported age of 60 at time of death in 1872):
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014901/005014901_00633.pdf

Griffiths Valuation shows a Pierce Murphy farming just over 51 acres in Ballyknock, local print date was 1852:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch