What happened to Mary Ann Sumner after 1851?

[LizzieL]

He's at no 25 South Street, BS in 1861, occ fishmonger and fruiterer.

[LizzieL]

ps James and Elizabeth owned the Maltsters Arms Beerhouse in Bishop Stortford for 20 years until some time after 1871. there was a new owner by 1881.

James and Elizabeth did not own the Maltster's Arms, they rented it. James died on 4 Jan 1874. I have come across a newspaper article where his widow, Elizabeth, was taken to court (in 1877) for non-payment of rent on the Maltster's Arms owed before James's death.

[verdia]

Hi Ray, Yes I did see on the 1841 census a womans name with the surname Griffin. I have no idea who she is. As for James Sumner having three wives that is news to me. I have copies of the 1851 census through to 1871 and on all three census Elizabeth is from Clare Suffolk. Your information as regards weights and measures and James Death is valuable information for me. I'm not sure if you had a marriage date there for James and Elizabeth I will read back and check. On the 1871 census all the children are there except the two eldest Mary Ann and Ann. Since  1861 there are two more children. the children after Ann are Austen, Sarah, Elizabeth, Jullia and our James. And I think as you remarked still at the Maltsters Arms. I only got onto that by deciphering the bad writing. I will put James Tucker Sumners name on the forum and see if anyone has further information.  James did end up living in Lewisham London where he married. His sister Elizabeth is there also.  Must add nearly forgot Brother George is not living at home in 1871 census. He is the next child after Sarah. Sarah dies in 1875 or there abouts in Bishop Stortford.

[LizzieL]

The maiden name of Austen Sumner's mother is Giffin. There is a marriage of a James Sumner to an Elizabeth Giffin in Woodford Essex on 17 July 1842. James is a widower and a butcher. His father is also called James and a publican. Elizabeth is a spinster. There is a death of an Elizabeth Sumner in BS Q3 1848 age 34.

James Tucker Sumner has mother's maiden name Ive.
James Sumner widower married Elizabeth Ive spinster at Marylebone on 5 May 1850. He was a coal merchant, father was James a barge master. Elizabeth's father was Thomas Ive gardener deceased. Witnesses Edmund Austin, Louise (?- rather faint) Austin and James Tucker.

Three marriages.
Second wife also Elizabeth  - married and died between 1841 and 1851 censuses, therefore only 3rd wife  (second Elizabeth ) is on censuses.

[LizzieL]

Elizabeth Giffin may be related to the Susanna Giffin nbic  (poss Essex) who is with James and 1st wife Ann nee Livermore in 1841.

[LizzieL]

Witnesses to Sumner / Giffin marriage were Henry Giffin and William Sumner. Elizabeth's father was Benjamin Giffin occ gardener.
Fortunately James Sumner could sign his name, so can compare signatures on this marriage and that with Ann Livermore.

[LizzieL]

Looks like Mary Ann's second husband and her father James's 3rd wife might be related - both Ive born in Clare, Suffolk.

Robert Ive was buried as Robert Mortlock Ive even though he married as Robert Ive. His parents were Thomas Ive and Mehetabel Mortlock. They married on 15 Oct 1815.

It looks as if Mehetabel is a widow in 1841, youngest child with her is 4. There is the death of a Thomas Ive in Risbridge district in 1839. His age is 44. Could be him.

Thomas and Mehetabel had a daughter Elizabeth Ann Ive bapt in Clare on 15 Nov 1824. As Elizabeth Ive said her father was Thomas occ gardener. It is looking like Mary Ann married her stepmother's younger brother after her first husband died.

[verdia]

Hi, Many, Many thanks for all the information on James Sumner and his three wives. I have this census of 1861.
               James Tucker  Head   58yrs   Miller and Baker (master)  employing 3 men and 2 boys.   Born B.S.
               Julia Ives          Niece  38yrs  Housekeeper/Domestic Servant        Born suffolk Clare
               Sarah Sumner  Niece  9          Scholar         Born B.S.
   The next three are one servant and two boy bakers.
The Sarah Sumner will be my James daughter.      The address is South Street.

And of interest James Tucker in the same year 1861 marries Julia Susannah  Ive in East London in June 1861.

[verdia]

Hi, I meant to ask is James Tucker, Elizabeth Ives Uncle and Julia her sister. I'm just wondering why in my James and Elizabeths' family Sarah and James their youngest were given the middle name Tucker? I thought that, that was usually their Mothers maiden name hence my getting all confused and thinking Elizabeth Ive was Elizabeth Tucker.