How to go further....

[IgorStrav]

I wonder if I can ask probably an idiot question.  Which is about what else can I do.

I have a 'difficult' London family history, which has puzzled me over a number of years, and I had some great help with a recent enquiry here.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793394.msg6497835#msg6497835

The difficulty with my researches is because the names are relatively common (and open to mistranscription), secondly because they did not necessarily marry, or necessarily register the birth of their children, being mostly content to have them baptised, and thirdly because they lived in the poverty stricken East End of London and quoted pob either as St George in the East, or in local adjacent areas like Wapping/Limehouse etc.

I have two people I'd like to research further.

1.  Mary Ann Williams.
She features on the birth certificate of my grandfather Joseph William Burton, who was born
11/12 1876 in St George in the East.
He was registered as BURDEN, MMN Williams
Joseph William Burden
1877 Jan-Feb-Mar
St George in the East
Volume 1c Page 441

I'm sure that this is him, as his father is Joseph and the family appears in the 1881, where just for a change the family are shown as BARTON.

28 Star St, St George in the East
RG11/455/93 p 8
Joseph Barton   30 Head Marr Dock labourer b St Georges East, Middlesex
Mary A. Barton   31 wife
Joseph Barton   4
Mary A. Barton   13
Elizabeth Barton   

However, through further research on subsequent children of Joseph Burton, I've found MMN as Mary Ann BARLOW.

There is a child, ANNA BURTON born 1878, MMN BARLOW, who dies I believe before the 1881;
a son WILLIAM BURTON, born 1882 MMN BARLOW, and the 1911 suggests parents Joseph and Mary Ann "married" in 1880 (can find no marriage ref).

Reg district:   Stepney
Reg District No:   20
Sub-reg district:   Shadwell and Ratcliff
ED, institution, or vessel:   13
Piece:   1542

So this suggests that my grandfather JOSEPH WILLIAM and the other child in the 1881 shown as BURTON, were not the children of Mary Ann Barlow, but of a previous 'wife' Mary Ann Williams.

It's possible that the child Mary Ann, aged 13 in the 1881 (so born c 1868), is the daughter of either Mary Ann Williams, or Mary Ann Barlow (or indeed Joseph Burton/Burden/Barton etc) from a previous relationship, but I've not been able to find her either in an earlier or later census.

But certainly my great grandmother is a MARY ANN WILLIAMS who is possibly born c 1850, and possibly born in St George in the East.

I've not been able to find her in the 1871 (potentially with a small daughter Mary Ann), but of course she may have been living with another man under his name.

Is there anything else I can or should do to try and find her?


2.  Sarah Wayling

This is the mother of Joseph Burton Snr and therefore my greatx2 grandmother, as really helpfully established by smudwhisk and other fabulous roots chatters in the other thread I posted (see above).

In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.

Would my next step be to try and look at Parish Registers in Wapping?  How would I be able to see these?

Any thoughts, please.  And thank you - again - for reading.

[josey]

Just a thought .....Have you considered that the 2 Mary Anns ARE the same person but that she was born Williams or Barlow, married [or not] a Barlow or Williams & was widowed [or not] then cohabitated with Joseph Burton? It is not unknown for a remarried or cohabiting widow to give variously her maiden name or previous married name as maiden name on a birth certificate.

[IgorStrav]

Just a thought .....Have you considered that the 2 Mary Anns ARE the same person but that she was born Williams or Barlow, married [or not] a Barlow or Williams & was widowed [or not] then cohabitated with Joseph Burton? It is not unknown for a remarried or cohabiting widow to give variously her maiden name or previous married name as maiden name on a birth certificate.

No I'd not considered that, Josey.....

but the 1911 says that Joseph and Mary Ann were "married in 1880" and had had 4 children in the marriage, 2 of whom were living and 2 died.

Their daughters Charlotte and Elizabeth (Lizzie) were with them in the Census, and William and Alice had died. 

I know this doesn't mention the Anna Burton shown above, which (without a birth cert ordered as yet) I have only theorised is their daughter. Perhaps another reason I should get it just to check if she 'belongs' to them.

[IgorStrav]

added....

It's true I don't seem to have found Mary Ann BARLOW Burton ahead of the 1881 census.

She was apparently born Whitechapel c1852 (from 1901 and 1911 Censuses) or alternatively c1851 London (1891 Census) or c1850 Whitechapel (1881 Census)

Perhaps having a better look for her might be a good idea, Josey, you are right.

[Lily M]

Have you found Joseph Burton (gt.grandfather) on the 1871?  I can’t find him.

IF Mary Ann Barlow was his second wife, how do you know his first wife was also called Mary?

ADDED    Because you have Joseph's birth certificate.  Sorry, should have read your thread properly.

ADDED   Have you ruled this death out?

Mary Ann Burton
Born 1851  Died 01/1880
St. George in the East

[Lily M]

Maybe a possible for Joseph’s sister.

Mary Ann Williams
Born 1868 St. George in the East
Vol.01C  Page 479

No mother’s maiden name

[smudwhisk]

In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.

Would my next step be to try and look at Parish Registers in Wapping?  How would I be able to see these?

Wapping Parish Registers are viewable on Ancestry.  How good the indexing is though is a mute point.  The fact that these were very large parishes covering fairly small areas of London means while she may believe she was born in Wapping, she could have been born or just baptised elsewhere or moved into the area as a child and knew nothing else.  Its also possible she could have been baptised non-conformist as there were several chapels in the various parishes in that area and some of my ancestors kept swapping between non-conformist chapels and CofE churches for baptisms and burials.  I suspect you need to look at a wider area of the East End for the family if there is no sign of them in Wapping or even the neighbouring parishes.

[Lily M]

You’re right about this being tricky with the common names.

I’m not so sure about the Mary Ann Williams birth I mentioned earlier.

I think that one’s more likely to be the Mary Ann born in the workhouse to mother Elizabeth, who gives her year of birth as 1846.

[IgorStrav]

Have you found Joseph Burton (gt.grandfather) on the 1871?  I can’t find him.





ADDED   Have you ruled this death out?

Mary Ann Burton
Born 1851  Died 01/1880
St. George in the East

I think this may be Mary Ann Williams Burton's death cert - and I need to get it. Especially as there is the Anna Burton MMN Barlow birth born 1878.

No, don't have any of them in the 1871.