How to go further....

[josey]

you have a Mary Williams who gives St George in the East AND Chelsea AND Marylebone as places of birth on various censuses?  ..you're sure it really is the same Mary Williams?

I gave the wrong impression - it was different members of the Williams family who were born/lived in these areas; I have certificates, addresses from them & censuses & workhouse admissions and am sure of my facts. And actually I made a mistake with St George in the East  - that is another family. The only thing yet to find is the fate of my Mary Willams [daughter of William Williams & Johanna nee Frawley both from Ireland born 1840/41 in St Luke's Chelsea] after the death of both her parents in 1855.

[jonw65]

Another coincidence(?) or two re those Barlows in Star Street!

In the 1891 census a likely looking Elizabeth Barlow (Bartow on ancestry), 68, is in St George in the East, living with her 25 year old married daughter, recorded as Hannah, wife of James Marlin or Martin. Piece 286 folio 17 page 34.

But the marriage for those two seems to be at St Philip Stepney, 14 April 1884
James Marling + Annie Robertson
Because their first daughter Annie Alice (born 30 June 1884) has mother's maiden name Barlow, but the later ones have Robertson!

And guess who were the witnesses at that 1884 marriage? Joseph Burton and Mary Ann Burton!
At least these people must have known each other!

Baptism of the Marling's son James George at St George in the East, 9 May 1886, the abode was 30 Star St, Commercial Road. Which was the same as on Charlotte Burton's a year later. Did they ever all live at number 30 at the same time?
That first child Annie Alice seems to be with her Marling grandmother in 1891, and is back with parents in 1901.
John

[IgorStrav]

Another coincidence(?) or two re those Barlows in Star Street!

In the 1891 census a likely looking Elizabeth Barlow (Bartow on ancestry), 68, is in St George in the East, living with her 25 year old married daughter, recorded as Hannah, wife of James Marlin or Martin. Piece 286 folio 17 page 34.

But the marriage for those two seems to be at St Philip Stepney, 14 April 1884
James Marling + Annie Robertson
Because their first daughter Annie Alice (born 30 June 1884) has mother's maiden name Barlow, but the later ones have Robertson!

And guess who were the witnesses at that 1884 marriage? Joseph Burton and Mary Ann Burton!
At least these people must have known each other!

Baptism of the Marling's son James George at St George in the East, 9 May 1886, the abode was 30 Star St, Commercial Road. Which was the same as on Charlotte Burton's a year later. Did they ever all live at number 30 at the same time?
That first child Annie Alice seems to be with her Marling grandmother in 1891, and is back with parents in 1901.
John

Wow!

I will have a good look at all these Barlow references - need to write it all down first to get it straight.
Will certainly look at the marriage cert with Joseph and Mary Ann Burton!

Added:  Just looked at the witness entries on the marriage cert - see neither Joseph nor Mary Ann could sign.  This actually matches the fact that the 1911 has someone signing on his behalf.

[IgorStrav]

you have a Mary Williams who gives St George in the East AND Chelsea AND Marylebone as places of birth on various censuses?  ..you're sure it really is the same Mary Williams?

I gave the wrong impression - it was different members of the Williams family who were born/lived in these areas; I have certificates, addresses from them & censuses & workhouse admissions and am sure of my facts. And actually I made a mistake with St George in the East  - that is another family. The only thing yet to find is the fate of my Mary Willams [daughter of William Williams & Johanna nee Frawley both from Ireland born 1840/41 in St Luke's Chelsea] after the death of both her parents in 1855.

I thought that might be the case, Josey, that they were different Williamses in different London locations.

It's very frustrating that there aren't always marriages, or birth registrations (co-habiting, and christenings instead) to give better clues.  I wish you every luck - thanks for looking at my Williams whilst suffering with your own! 

[IgorStrav]

Added:

Have ordered PDF certs for Mary Ann Burton death in 1880
Anna Burton MMN Barlow birth in 1878

and will keep you posted when they arrive.

[smudwhisk]

2.  Sarah Wayling
In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.

There are two burials in Wapping:

21 Aug 1836 James Wayling aged 54 years from Maidenhead Court, Wapping
16 Aug 1840 Mary Wayling aged 70 years

Can't see any other Waylings or variants in the parish at any point around that time period.  I suspect Sarah may not have actually been from there but thought perhaps she was.  Whether those two are related is a moot point due to the ages, but one or other may be incorrect.

[IgorStrav]

2.  Sarah Wayling
In search of Sarah Wayling, who was apparently born in Wapping, I've looked on Ancestry (and FamilySearch) for any other "Wayling" family members, brothers or sisters or even potential parents, but haven't had much success.

There are two burials in Wapping:

21 Aug 1836 James Wayling aged 54 years from Maidenhead Court, Wapping
16 Aug 1840 Mary Wayling aged 70 years

Can't see any other Waylings or variants in the parish at any point around that time period.  I suspect Sarah may not have actually been from there but thought perhaps she was.  Whether those two are related is a moot point due to the ages, but one or other may be incorrect.

Thank you very much for these smudwhisk. 
Given my Sarah Wayling was born c 1818/1819, then James might possibly have been her father (aged c 36 at her birth) and Mary could possibly have been her grandmother (aged 48 at her birth).

No sign of mother or grandfather in Wapping though, it seems.

1881 Surname distribution suggests most common in Essex.  But whether that is where the family came from is still a question......

I appreciate that Sarah may have been brought up in Wapping, but born elsewhere, as I've got other families who moved into London for work.  And Wapping may well have been a destination for those who lived by the sea elsewhere.

Will continue looking!  Thanks again for your thoughts and help 

[smudwhisk]

It might be worth getting Mary Wayling's death certificate to see if it gives any clues to her identity and possibly who the informant may be.  Unlike some on the page, she's not listed as dying in the Workhouse but just the parish of Wapping St John.  Its also possible that her age may be wrong and she could perhaps be James' wife.  Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

[IgorStrav]

Thanks to everyone who looked earlier.

The Mary Ann Williams saga - the plot thickens.

I have received the death cert of the Mary Ann Burton death in 1880 and it is not the right one.  Wife of a William Burton.

I also applied for the 1878 birth certificate of Anna Burton, who was shown on the GRO as MMN Barlow.
And she IS the daughter of Joseph Burton, labourer, and Mary Ann Burton formerly Barlow, of 28 Star Street.

So I am beginning to think that the previous suggestion is right - that Mary Ann WILLIAMS (shown as mother of my grandfather Joseph William Burton on his 1876 birth cert) may actually be the same person as Mary Ann BARLOW.

And I need to have a good look at the very local Barlow family kindly found by jonw65.  I haven't yet had the time to sit down and get my head round it all.

Any thoughts as to why in the 1911 Joseph and Mary Ann said they'd been married 31 years (so 1880), with 4 children, 2 living/2 died, which wouldn't have included young Anna, or my grandfather born 1876?

Answering my own question, I wonder if Mary Ann was born Barlow, married a Williams, and then lived with Joseph Burton, and that her Williams husband didn't die till 1880?

Given I can't find any marriage for them, they're scarcely avoiding bigamy, are they!


Added:  hadn't realised I'd also got the birth certificate for Mary Ann BARLOW born 1868 St Georges. 

We had theorised that she might be the Mary Ann BURTON aged 13 who appears with Joseph Snr, wife Mary Ann, Joseph Jnr, and Elizabeth in the 1881 at 28 Star Street.

The certificate says she is the daughter of George Milton Barlow, and Mary Ann Barlow formerly Williams  of 3 Princes Square.  George Milton Barlow's occupation is 'Cook at the Sailor's House'


Now totally confused in the Barlow Williams saga.......

Ignore that last section. I think George Milton Barlow is a completely different family.  Just coincidence re the Barlow/Williams names.