Author Topic: James Gillies 1875 - 1956  (Read 2288 times)

Offline agray1949

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James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« on: Thursday 20 September 18 14:12 BST (UK) »
I have downloaded a Catholic baptism record from Scotland's people & am not sure what a couple of the phrases are so could anyone help me please.
Also all bar 2 of the entries on the page refer to the child as the lawful son or daughter of so & so. Does this mean that the child was born out of wedlock.

Offline dowdstree

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 20 September 18 15:28 BST (UK) »
You will also be able to get his birth registration from Scotlands People.

I could find nothing under Gillies or anything similar but there is a birth registered under the surname of Ingram Ref 150/27 which looks like him. Worth checking and also points to him being born out of wedlock.

Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife

Offline agray1949

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 20 September 18 16:44 BST (UK) »
Thanks Dorrie
I have just printed that out & they are the same person. It looks as if he has taken Elspet/Elsie Lobot as his mothers name because that is what is on his marriage & death certificates which threw me a bit.
I would still like to know what the unreadable words were if you can work them out. Just out of pure curiosity.

Alan

Offline Forfarian

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 20 September 18 17:03 BST (UK) »
I think the first one is (then Prot:) suggesting that William Gillies was a Protestant at the time but that he had subsequently converted.

The second one looks like (Apos:) - could it be Apostate, i.e. she was Catholic but had abandoned her religion?

The third one is 'baptised by me" - the standard form in RC baptisms.

The second witness, by the way, is W Clapperton. The Clapperton family were a prominent Catholic family in this area, and produced some sons who became priests.

Yes, I think that James Gillies was illegitimate.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline agray1949

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 20 September 18 17:16 BST (UK) »
Thank you Forfarian.
Once again you have come up trumps with a clear & concise answer.
I think the family may have chopped & changed religion as they went along as James married my Grandmother Alexina Gray in the Church of Scotland in 1917.
Interestingly William & Elspet Loban had a daughter Mary Ann born also in 1975 so I reckon he was being a naughty boy back then.
Also James assumed his mother Elspet's name on his marriage & death certificates.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 20 September 18 17:41 BST (UK) »
Interestingly William & Elspet Loban had a daughter Mary Ann born also in 1975 so I reckon he was being a naughty boy back then.
Also James assumed his mother Elspet's name on his marriage & death certificates.
Now I am confused.

The baptism says his mother was Louisa Ingram, and that is confirmed by the birth certificate that lists him as James Ingram. How does Elspet Lobban come into the picture?

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Rosinish

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 20 September 18 18:24 BST (UK) »
I too was confused until I re-read it!

Mother married...

INGRAM ELIZA MARGARET & LOBBAN PETER 1938
159/ 12 Keith


Annie

Add...Actually, I have read it again & I'm back to being confused!!!  ;D
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Fordyce

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 20 September 18 18:50 BST (UK) »
Hullo again.

Louisa INGRAM is known to me. She was baptised a Catholic (see LIBINDX NM211645). She also went by the names Elizabeth INGRAM and Eliza INGRAM, and you'll find her as Lewis INGRAM in Seatown Cullen in 1881 (other names in that census entry are wrong too). It's not surprising she lapsed - she had a string of illegitimate children - I knew of three and James GILLIES (or INGRAM) is now a fourth. She did eventually marry, then calling herself as Louisa Bremner INGRAM. She was clearly a wild one - an old man in Cullen who knew her in her old age and interviewed by one of her descendants described her in a way not repeatable here!

The GILLIES family were Catholic - NM073253 shows this, the father marrying Elspet LOBBAN shortly before the illeg child was born (which must explain James' citing her as his mother). The 1881 census shows the child being brought up by its gdparents in Cullen (surname recorded as GELLIS) before finding his own way.

It does look as though William GILLIES got two women pregnant at the same time, so no wonder Elspet LOBBAN wouldn't take on her competitor's child! Louisa INGRAM was clearly feckless - a later child Peter INGRAM born in 1878 was eventually taken in by her sister Ann INGRAM and her husband William GEDDES. Peter became Peter GEDDES then Peter GEDDES INGRAM, but eventually the INGRAM faded away and by the time his children died the surname had become just GEDDES. Most of the Geddes MIs in Deskford churchyard are in fact for this Ingram family. Which caused me at least no end of confusion, especially that Peter recurs every generation in my family right back to before 1700.

It took a very long time to untangle everything - only to find none of this family were related to me.

Hope that fills in some background.


Offline Forfarian

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Re: James Gillies 1875 - 1956
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 20 September 18 18:52 BST (UK) »
Mother married...
INGRAM ELIZA MARGARET & LOBBAN PETER 1938 159/ 12 Keith
Are you saying that Louisa Ingram who had an illegitimate child in 1875 married as Eliza Margaret Ingram 63 years later, and that Louisa's son James adopted his future stepfather's surname 21 years before he became his stepfather? ???

I think I need to retire to a darkened room with a wet cloth over my head ;) 
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.