Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family

[melba_schmelba]

You can get a rough Y-DNA haplogroup by downloading your Ancestry DNA and uploading to the website Morley DNA - see the link below

http://www.geneticgenealogist.net/2017/08/updated-method-to-get-ydna-haplogroup.html

[RedMystic]

Thank you diplodicus & Melba.

Given Fred's age we have decided to proceed with the y DNA test. That way, the test us available as others do the test into the future.

Am I correct in my understanding thst y DNA will help identify Fred's paternal grandfather?

Also, am I correctly understanding that  it won't help identify his grandmother Mary's father ( the person thought to be Jewish)?

[Ruskie]

Others will know more than I do on the subject but before sending off for a Y DNA test kit, maybe check to see if they can use his previous sample - you may be able to "upgrade" to the YDNA test. The more markers you test (and the more expensive the test) the (possibly) better the results.

My father receives many 12 marker matches which are virtually useless in so far as finding any family connections. My partner has only three (only three) matches. Both tested 67 markers.

[Carmella]

RedMystic, you are correct, Y-DNA will only help find Fred's Grandfathers paternal line, it won't be able to help with the grandmother's side at all. 

It would also be worthwhile checking whether there's already a Surname Y-DNA Project for Fred's surname.  Sometimes there can be discounted Y-tests as groups want to target men with certain surnames - see:

https://www.familytreedna.com/projects.aspx

You can also do an internet search for one-name surname projects too, as a lot of them are now using Y-DNA.


There is a lots of debate online about how many Y-DNA markers to test - see this link:

https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/paternal-lineages-y-dna/paternal-lineage-y-dna-str-basics

(you can browse the FTDNA forums for free, but have to register to post).

In my case despite testing 37 markers the only matches were at 25 markers. However the closest 25 marker match linked geographically to a match from an autosomal test so I know that that match is on my direct paternal line and not on any of my other ancestral lines.

Regarding Autosomal DNA, if you've not already done so, as well as gedmatch, you can also upload Fred's Ancestry autosomal DNA to MyHeritage, FTDNA and LivingDNA.  (FTDNA only give the closest matches for free, but from my own experience seem to have plenty of USA testers with Jewish &/or Native American ancestry).

[Ruskie]

Regarding Autosomal DNA, if you've not already done so, as well as gedmatch, you can also upload Fred's Ancestry autosomal DNA to MyHeritage, FTDNA and LivingDNA.  (FTDNA only give the closest matches for free, but from my own experience seem to have plenty of USA testers with Jewish &/or Native American ancestry).

ooohh, I didn't know you could upload to Living DNA. Is that for those who tested with FTDNA too?
I've already "done" the others. 

Might uploading to Gedmatch help RedMystic if s/he hasn't already done so?

[Carmella]

Here's the discussion thread on FindMyPast/LivingDNA:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797816.0

I uploaded my DNA to LivingDNA the other week, I had to use an unzipping program to transfer it from FTDNA.

Anybody uploading their DNA to any of the above mentioned sites and/or testing their Y-DNA could get a breakthrough on their ancestral family tree - some experts advise to "Fish in all ponds!"

[diplodicus]

RedMystic,

I am sceptical that ethnicity tells me anything about my ancestors. My mother is Welsh back at least five generations but Ancestry tells me I'm 75% Irish/Scot!

These 497 Galway matches you mention seem a positive indicator but genealogy has a habit of appearing to tell us what we want to hear. It has, in the past, led me to spend way too much time on false trails because I was not thorough enough in ensuring that a person really was a connection. Sadly, the quality of research by some individuals is questionable at best and downright misleading at worst. My paternal ancestors come from a village in Suffolk where there are three clumps of "Vincents". Many people have made the leap to connect these three clumps but there is absolutely no documentary evidence to support such an assumption.

Looking at the oral history, Fred could view his native make-up as 62% but possibly 75%.(The higher figure would prevail if George was actually fathered by a native man rather than George H??). So the white element is somewhere between 37% or as low as 25%.

Y-DNA is only passed from fathers to their sons. It's the presence of a Y-chromosome that makes the baby male. So Y-DNA won't tell you anything about Fred's mother or her ancestors but it will be the same as grandfather George H's (if he is the grandfather).

Fred inherited his mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from his Alaskan native mother who inherited it from her mother and so on. Fred won't pass on his mtDNA to his offspring. However, if he had sisters (or even half-sisters on his mother's side)  they will have passed on their mtDNA to all their children.  He won't have Marge's mtDNA.

Marg will have passed on her mtDNA to father George but he won't have passed it on to anyone.

George will have passed on his Y-DNA to Fred.

Y-DNA can only be matched to others who have taken the test. So, you are relying on finding the proverbial needle in a rather large haystack. To get the sort of fine focus needed to identify recent relatives, you need to purchase the most expensive sort of Y-DNA analysis as will any relatives. The bright spot in my depressing post is that both Y-DNA and mtDNA change (mutate) only very slowly from one generation to another so if there is anyone out there who has submitted samples for these tests, the linkage will show.

So, the Jewish ancestry traces you seek will only show up in Fred's autosomal DNA which I assume is the testing you have already completed and from which you have found your Galway 'connections'. BTW Fred can't be Jewish in the strictest sense as I believe that according to the rules of Judaism only the children of a Jewish mother are recognised as being born Jewish.

Finally, I have found from personal experience that oral history is a curse and a blessing. It is often "tidied up" down the generations and vaguely-known facts are stitched together by a fanciful narrative into a logical but inaccurate tapestry. DNA testing has many sad tales of testers being very upset by finding a DNA narrative of their past quite at odds with what they have been led to believe.

Despite all of this, I really do hope that you are successful in your quest.

p.s. You might wish to consider National Geographic's Geno 2.0 test whilst you're browsing?

[Ruskie]

Wonderful summary diplodicus!

Thanks Carmella. I'll try uploading mine to LivingDNA too.

[RedMystic]

My apologies for the tardy response.

Thank you, diplodicus & Carmella, for the explanation about y DNA testing. Even though it sounds like it won't answer the Jewish / non-Jewish query, it may help identify Fred H's white grandfather.

That said, the single name studies are unlikely to shed light in this case. This group of Native / First Nations people were Anglicizing their names between 1880-1900. As a result, missionaries were often the provider of a surname at the time the person (adult or child) was baptized. Given that, Fred H's father's surname may have been picked from thin air. Fred H's DNA results don't overlap with any others of the same surname.

Thank you also, diplodicus, for the comment about being Jewish in the strictest sense. This family isn't invested one way or the other in that matter, except to determine, for interest sake, who Marg's father was. The family the man was thought to have come from is reasonably well documented, so it would fill in a piece of the tree. One brother from the family definitely had a child with a woman of the same tribe as Marg.

This is indeed a conundrum. As mentioned, it may only be resolved as more people do DNA testing.

Thanks again for all the invaluable observations.