Author Topic: 1654 burial entry  (Read 903 times)

Offline grantleydawn

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1654 burial entry
« on: Sunday 30 September 18 04:06 BST (UK) »
The image is from a Yorkshire 1659 burial register and I am having trouble with the words underlined in red.

Initially it looks “twines Kooa Childs” of Mr William . . . .

Can anyone help me please?

Regards
Grantley

( I don’t have a baptism entry to support “twins”. )

Offline bbart

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 30 September 18 05:58 BST (UK) »
A wild guess...

twin of Rosa  child of McWilliam

If so, maybe one twin died before being named?

Offline arthurk

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 30 September 18 09:49 BST (UK) »
The entry is from St Mary's Beverley, and the register can be seen at FindMyPast. Unfortunately the BT has not survived, so no comparison can be made.

The word in the margin does look like 'twines', then it looks like Rosa. (The 'R' is different from that in Richard in the line above, but higher up the page, the second entry for September has Robart and Richard in the same line with different forms of 'R'.)

The next word is childe, but with a contraction mark above the 'e', suggesting 'childer', the old plural of child. Then it's 'of Mr William Billips'.

However, looking at the whole page, it seems that the register wasn't always filled in immediately - or very carefully. The Robart/Richard entry I mentioned says he was 'buried the aboute the 8th day'. But down at the bottom of the page is where it gets interesting. After the burial on 24th Nov is this:

Omited in October Richard Roward oatmealman buried the 16 day

Except that he wasn't omitted - the entry immediately above our query is very clear:

Richard Roward oatmealmaker was buried the sixteenth day

So he was entered twice - and there's also a second entry for our query at the foot of the page:

Two children of William Billopps was buried the same day

So my best guess is that two children were buried, one of whom may have been called Rosa. But the twins bit might be a guess, or filled in from memory, as other entries seem to have been (cf the lack of forenames for children). The second entry is possibly an attempt at a correct version - maybe some rough notes went missing, and had now been found? (Though they still don't give forenames, unfortunately.)
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline grantleydawn

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 30 September 18 10:40 BST (UK) »
Wow, thank you Arthurk and bbart.

I totally missed the words “omited in October” and therefore I had the “twines” buried in October plus the later entry “two children of” under the heading of November. So, I had 4 children being buried, when it was really 2.

So, I am happy with the word “twines”.

Regarding “Rosa. I am uncomfortable with the 1st & 3rd letters. The “R” appears to be inconsistent with the rest of the image (especially it's tail) and the “s” is not of a the style that I would expect in the middle of a word.

On reflection, I wonder if the word is “two” making the original entry as “two a Childe’ of Mr William . . . .” with the word ”twines” inserted afterwards.

I have no baptism of a Rosa, nor of twins. Possibly they died before baptism.


Offline arthurk

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 30 September 18 11:12 BST (UK) »
Regarding “Rosa. I am uncomfortable with the 1st & 3rd letters. The “R” appears to be inconsistent with the rest of the image (especially it's tail) and the “s” is not of a the style that I would expect in the middle of a word.

On reflection, I wonder if the word is “two” making the original entry as “two a Childe’ of Mr William . . . .” with the word ”twines” inserted afterwards.

In the Robart/Richard entry I mentioned (8 Sep, higher up the page), one of the R's is very similar, but I agree, the 's' doesn't seem to match anything else. However, you've made me look again at this, and you may be onto something with 'two'.

Joseph Wright's English Dialect Dictionary gives 'tweeah' as an East Yorkshire variant of 'two', and (allowing for a more enthusiastic loop on top of the 't' than others have) I could read this as 'twea'. Unfortunately the OED site seems to be down at present, where a possibly more definitive range of old variants might be available.

Quote
I have no baptism of a Rosa, nor of twins. Possibly they died before baptism.

Well maybe Rosa wasn't correct - "Rosa childer" on its own doesn't make sense. And maybe twins was a guess. But if the baptism register was kept in a similar fashion, who knows what events of the previous few months may have been muddled or unrecorded?
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline grantleydawn

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 30 September 18 22:36 BST (UK) »
Funny that you mention the manner in which the baptism register may have been kept. It did take a nose dive from 1653 to 1660 when it became a register of “births”, not baptisms.

Thanks for your help. Regards Grantley

Offline Old Bristolian

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #6 on: Monday 01 October 18 10:07 BST (UK) »
I'm sure that's not an 'R' at the beginning of the word. I think it might be some local form of 'two' - twea? which would make sense. The other entries say, ' a child of...' so for twins it would seen correct to say ' two children of...'  I imagine the contraction mark over childe implies 'child(ren)'

Steve
Bumstead - London, Suffolk
Plant, Woolnough, Wase, Suffolk
Flexney, Godfrey, Burson, Hobby -  Oxfordshire
Street, Mitchell - Gloucestershire
Horwood, Heale Drew - Bristol
Gibbs, Gait, Noyes, Peters, Padfield, Board, York, Rogers, Horler, Heale, Emery, Clavey, Mogg, - Somerset
Fook, Snell - Devon
M(a)cDonald, Yuell, Gollan, McKenzie - Rosshire
McLennan, Mackintosh - Inverness
Williams, Jones - Angelsey & Caernarvon
Campbell, McMartin, McLellan, McKercher, Perthshire

Offline arthurk

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #7 on: Monday 01 October 18 11:31 BST (UK) »
Joseph Wright's English Dialect Dictionary gives 'tweeah' as an East Yorkshire variant of 'two', and (allowing for a more enthusiastic loop on top of the 't' than others have) I could read this as 'twea'. Unfortunately the OED site seems to be down at present, where a possibly more definitive range of old variants might be available.

The OED is now available, and confirms the spelling 'twea' as a northern English variant of 'two'.

Funny that you mention the manner in which the baptism register may have been kept. It did take a nose dive from 1653 to 1660 when it became a register of “births”, not baptisms.

That's the Commonwealth period, and this kind of thing is seen in a lot of parishes. At the start of that period I've sometimes seen a note in the register recording that the Parish Clerk either continues in post, or that he is replaced, and that from then on the title is Parish Register.

At the end of the period there is sometimes a catch-up of baptisms - either they were performed during the interregnum and not recorded then, or they weren't performed at all and were done after 1660. So it may be worth checking around 1660 for any that you think could be missing.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline grantleydawn

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Re: 1654 burial entry
« Reply #8 on: Monday 01 October 18 22:55 BST (UK) »
Once again, thank you for your help. It is great to have a forum like this.

I would never have guessed that twea was (or had been) a real word.


Regards
Grantley