Author Topic: Tracing birth records in Portugal  (Read 1357 times)

Offline shope64

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Tracing birth records in Portugal
« on: Sunday 30 September 18 12:45 BST (UK) »
My grandmother always said she was born at the Avenida Liberdade, Lisbon, Portugal, in 1901 or 1902 to a British father (the nationality of her mother could be Portuguese or British). My grandmother said her name was Alma Unnellica Green. She claimed to have gone to boarding school in southern England (but said she went to Portugal for holidays), knew the Brighton and Hove, Suffolk and Romley areas. She also spoke of links to the Estoril area in Portugal. My problem is that in the last 15 years or so of looking for records, the earliest I have found is her sailing to Lisbon in 1926, with her occupation given as companion, travelling alone, then, sailing back to England about three months later. She changed her name sometime after that to Alma Grovenor-Collins. In around 1933 she married my grandfather, and her married name became McLellan. When she got married she gave her maiden name as Grovenor-Collins (and it is spelled Grovenor, not Grosvenor) and the man who stated he was her father, was not (at least as far as we know :o). She said she had an older and a younger sister and the younger sister died. Her father was said to have been invloved in vine growing / wine making / wine importing and may possibly have been a retired army officer (Grovenor-Collins was also a retired Major). She appears on lots of records after she married my grandfather as Alma McLellan, but he always called her Babs (even her duaghters don't know why). Can anyone help me or guide me to find her brith record? Even the GRO could not find a birth record for me. I hope one day to find out who she was and who her family were. Many thanks!

Offline iluleah

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 30 September 18 13:56 BST (UK) »
Hi and welcome to rootschat  ;D

Civil registration records are kept on a municipal level by local civil registration offices. After 100 years they are moved to the district registration office.

The Avenida da Liberdade, is Lisbon's main boulevard, it is where Embassies and hotels are.

The Consular section of the British Embassy in Lisbon is able to register the birth or death of a British national provided the event took place in Portugal. Registration is not compulsory, but it has the advantage of ensuring that a permanent record of the event is kept at the General Register Office in the United Kingdom.

Registration with the Portuguese authorities was/is mandatory. The birth  registered at the Civil Register Office nearest to the place of birth or residence, by one of the child's parents (if the parents are married) or by both (if they are not married and the father’s name is to appear on the certificate). This should be done within 20 days following the child’s birth.

http://www.irn.mj.pt/IRN/sections/irn/a_registral/servicos-externos-docs/contactos/contactos-dos-servicos4052/

Portugal at that time domestically  was declared bankrupt twice  on 14 June 1892, then again on 10 May 1902  causing industrial disturbances, socialist and republican antagonism and press criticism of the monarchy.  ( King Carlos who was later assasinated in 1908) Also at that time there was lots of British in Portugal including the British King ( the Avenida da Liberdade park is named after him)
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline jorose

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 30 September 18 16:10 BST (UK) »
I also suggest you track the history of the Grovenor-Collins she listed as her father at marriage. He may have been some other relation, such as a stepfather, uncle, or close friend of the family.
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Offline Annette7

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #3 on: Monday 01 October 18 03:23 BST (UK) »
I note the man named as her father when she married, and also a witness, was a William Henry Grovenor-Collins, Army Officer (reserve).   

However, as I'm sure you already know, there appears to be no army records for anyone with this name.  I note he is shown as bc.1885 when he died in 1964 and Probate Calendar shows him as William Henry Collins otherwise William Henry Grovenor!

All very odd.

Annette
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Offline shope64

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #4 on: Monday 01 October 18 11:18 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your prompt replies.

Iluleah; Thank you so much for the link and the info on birth registration. I do know that the birth was not in the consular returns, one of the reasons the GRO could not find it. I hope therefore that it may be at the district registration office in Portugal as you say it would have been transferred there 100 years after the event. I have two dates of birth for her; both the same day in October but a year apart. Fingers crossed! Thank you to for the information on the bankruptcy. I did some reading on the political situation in Portugal in the 1920s because my grandmother and a male friend were attacked in the street in Lisbon (I assume that this might have been any time between about 1919 and 1926). They were both stabbed, and she had the marks from it. I have no idea why they would be attacked so I assume it was simply a mugging.
Jorose; Thank you for the suggestion. There appears to be no familial connection that I can find, but I am hampered by not knowing the names of her parents or siblings, or even if the name Green is real. The age difference between them was about 16 years. She described him as her “adopted father” although, as she was using her Green name in 1926, this would have happened in her late twenties. It has occurred to me that this might just have been a turn of phrase and there might have been a different dynamic to their relationship; e.g. employer and employee. He had had a wife who, so the story goes, was ill in some way and a son. It has occurred to me that as her occupation is given as Companion in 1926, she might have been hired to look after his wife and then stayed on with him thereafter. I have no idea what happened to his son. Family stories suggest that she disliked her birth father and had no contact with her family from a relatively early age. She met my grandfather when she was with Grovenor-Collins, who was having a house built at the time so they lived in a large marquee type tent during construction. When she and my grandfather married, the family story goes that Grovenor-Collins was against her marriage to my grandfather and said he would attend the wedding but would never have contact with her again after that and as far as I know that was indeed the case. I do know that a few years later he married an American woman who was much younger than he was. To have hidden who her birth father was by getting William Henry to lie on an official document that he was her father when she got married, suggests she must have had good reason.
Annette7: It took some time for me to trace his army records. He changed his name at some point from William Henry Collins to William Henry Grovenor-Collins. I have no idea why although he may have thought that making his name double barrelled would help him move in different circles of society. I assume this was after he was retired from active duties and is why the name change is not reflected in his army records. But why Grovenor and what that spelling? I thought it might have been his mother’s maiden name but cannot find a connection. I’m not sure either how he made his money. While I’m sure that being a Major (although I have a vague recollection that he may not have had this title until he was a reserve officer) would provide him with a pension, he appears to be wealthier than that. And you are right; it is all very unusual.

One question I have is where she was and what she was doing during WW1. Family stories have her working at a wine importers called Boulto’s (the spelling is very uncertain) in London when she left school but that during WW1 her employment there may have stopped.
My thanks again to you all.

Offline Karen McDonald

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #5 on: Monday 01 October 18 13:24 BST (UK) »
One question I have is where she was and what she was doing during WW1. Family stories have her working at a wine importers called Boulto’s (the spelling is very uncertain) in London when she left school but that during WW1 her employment there may have stopped.
My thanks again to you all.

Bit of a long shot, but it might be worth asking this company if they know/knew of an importer under that name:

https://www.bbr.com/about

They have been in the same premises in London since 1698, so they should have a good idea about the competition!

Best regards,
Karen
 
McDonald MacDonald M'Donald McGregor MacGregor M'Gregor Twilley Wells Fentiman Carrington Rowe Needham Mitchell Mackie Collingwood Fuller Maides Shilton Hagon Budd

Offline shope64

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 03 October 18 14:52 BST (UK) »
Bit of a long shot, but it might be worth asking this company if they know/knew of an importer under that name:

https://www.bbr.com/about

They have been in the same premises in London since 1698, so they should have a good idea about the competition!

Best regards,
Karen
[/quote]

Thank you Karen. That was a greta idea! I've emailed them and hopefully they might be able to provide some information.

Offline Karen McDonald

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Re: Tracing birth records in Portugal
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 04 October 18 08:07 BST (UK) »
Sometimes the long shots come up trumps.  :)

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
McDonald MacDonald M'Donald McGregor MacGregor M'Gregor Twilley Wells Fentiman Carrington Rowe Needham Mitchell Mackie Collingwood Fuller Maides Shilton Hagon Budd