Author Topic: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's  (Read 3121 times)

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 07 October 18 20:29 BST (UK) »
You will note above that Charles (who was known until that time as Charles Andrew) was listed as a nephew of Catherine.  Actually Charles that was living in Corkhill, with his grandmother Catherine.  The description as a "nephew", we believe was wrongly described, because at that time the term was used as a grandchild.  The term lost its use in the 20th century and became exceeding rare.

Even to the middle of the last century one must watch how certain terms were used.  For example, 'friends' and 'cousins' were used interchangeably as we found out when looking around in 1982 when we first were introduced to such terms.

JJC
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 07 October 18 21:09 BST (UK) »
 :o In looking over "possible' (and perhaps not probable) matches I came across an Andrew Bogan, but he was from Fermanagh.  At age 33, he was RC and married to an Ellen Bogan who gave her age as 23.  Significantly, she gave her birthplace as Co. Tyrone.  They gave their residence in the 1901 census as No. 7 (visited) as Cattor.  Also residents at that time were John Bogan, a 4 month old son, and Jane McGarrity, aged 10 from County Tyrone.  This was most probable as well as being possible. ::)  Now to see if there is any more that might tie this together, but if it does it goes on to tell us a bit more of the start of Andrew, from County Fermanagh.
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 07 October 18 21:13 BST (UK) »
You will note above that Charles (who was known until that time as Charles Andrew) was listed as a nephew of Catherine.  Actually Charles that was living in Corkhill, with his grandmother Catherine.  The description as a "nephew", we believe was wrongly described, because at that time the term was used as a grandchild.  The term lost its use in the 20th century and became exceeding rare.
I think the term "nephew" in this case is because his uncle Hugh was listed on the line above. Catherine's details were also filled out incorrectly.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Kilfaddy/Corkhill/856187

However, starting with the Brogans... using mainly FREE resources (the exception being GRONI where I have 1 credit left which still allows me to do free searches and find quite a bit of information... in a very short space of time I was able to find the marriage of Andrew Brogan to Ellen McCarroll, the birth and death of Andrew Brogan and many other items which you either haven't been able to find or have gotten wrong. I suspect that other details on the families you are looking for might also be found if you start again and search more thoroughly. If you are a bit nicer with your replies to me then I might be inclined to share this information with you.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 07 October 18 21:55 BST (UK) »
 :) Thank you Aghadowey!

Bogan   Andrew   43   Male   Head of Family   Roman Catholic
Bogan   Ellen   41   Female   Wife   Roman Catholic
Bogan   John   10   Male   Son   Roman Catholic
Bogan   Mary   7   Female   Daughter   Roman Catholic
Bogan   Owen   6   Male   Son   Roman Catholic
Bogan   Catherine   5   Male   Son   Roman Catholic
Bogan   Thomas Henry   3   Male   Son   Roman Catholic
Bogan   Hary   88   Female   Mother   Roman Catholic

I have just come across a listing of John, and it seems that with the 1901 census he being only 4 months old it may be that this one that adds ten years to a 1911 census may be one of the Bogans we are looking for.

I haven't had time to digest the previous, but where was this Hugh (viz., in the line above)?  Couldn't find that reference.

The point that is being made is that while Census, and other things, may point in one direction there are still other twists and turns in that illusive quest to remake our histories.  Or even write them where there has been none.  Here, given the assistance of Aghadowey, we have another path to travel just to unwrap our forebares.

And I thank you.

As to your reference to my replies to you, there was only one that covered these last ten years and the dates that were overlooked regarding County Louth.  I have not visited these boards for those ten years and am a bit puzzled regarding your remark.

So you found the marriage of Andrew and Ellen; would you care to share your source(s)?

By the way, there is a reference to a "Hary", who was 88 years old and said to be a mother, would that be Andrew's mother?

jjc

Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.


Offline jj.carroll

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 07 October 18 21:58 BST (UK) »
Would that be the Hugh that was 8 years old at the time?

jjc
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 07 October 18 22:16 BST (UK) »
It's best to look at original sources whenever possible and fortunately the National Archives has included scanned images of 1901 and 1911 census.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Kilfaddy/Cattor/856322 -
Mother Mary Bogan not Hary- http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003418427/

Birth of Andrew Bogan (1867 Fermanagh)- parents John Bogan & Mary McCanna-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03463/2271739.pdf

I have been unable to find any record of Ellen and Andrew's marriage, which should have taken place around 1899.
29 May 1899 “City of Rome” arrived NY from Londonderry:  Andrew Bogan, 29, farming, Tyrone to cousin Thom Carroll
Marriage- https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:243H-XLV
Nov.1899 “Oceanic” arrived Liverpool from NY: Andrew Bogan, age 31, labourer & Ellen Bogan, age 26, servant

Ellen Bogan died 27 May 1917 and her home address was given as Tullyrush, Fintona. This was given by a Teresa Ross, possibly a daughter of Hugh Bogan. There is a problem with the demise of Andrew, in that there does not seem to be any death record.
Death (Ellen Bogan 1917) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1917/05214/4442418.pdf
informant was not a Teresa Ross (as you said earlier) but Nurse Clarke

Andrew Bogan m.2 (1918) Teresa Kelly https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09728/5529700.pdf

The births, marriages & deaths on Irish Genealogy site only go up to 1921 for Northern Ireland counties- after that date you'll need to search GRONI and view the certificate after registering and purchasing a few credits.
Andrew Bogan, age 76, died 23 June 1944, Omagh district

You also said (There is some confusion in that the first child was born November 1900, but there is no cogent explanation given anywhere we could find, nor inclusion in the 1901 census).
However, infant son John, aged 4 months is clearly listed with his parents Andrew & Ellen Bogan-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Killyfaddy/Cattor/1726544
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001185501/

In addition, there are numerous newspaper reports about Andrew Bogan, including Andrew Bogan involved in a shooting case which was widely reported (1908) & he was probably the Andrew Bogan drunk & disorderly in 1899.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #24 on: Monday 08 October 18 00:52 BST (UK) »
 :) Thank you for your fee information; I really appreciate it. 

To clarify some of the errors you seem to have dug up let me say that most of the things that I have stated up to now were taken from the Ulster Historical Foundation's report to me circa 1990, modified by what I could get from the general archives such as those of the 1901-1911 census contained in the National Archives.  While some of the data that has been used in the Ulster Foundation's report, it was very extensive and extremely expensive - but they also stated that there were many assumptions made that could (and couldn't) stand future research.

This does not excuse me for the errors are mine, as are the assumptions made.  ::)

You do seem to have gone the hard way and come up with some of the things that were missing when I first gathered the data, and then further researched it and drew my own conclusions.  For example, The Mother Hary was actually Mary - however I was relying upon the national archives and not the Ulster Historical Foundation.  That data was from there and not the dissertation that I paid for.  If you can't rely upon the NationalArchives, they had to be free of charge.

You have two references to what appear to be "manifests" from the City of Rome and the Oceanic, but did not explain what the context was to conclude that Andrew and Ellen were associated with those boats (or ships).  These two points apparently conflict in that they were both 1899 but the ages differed for Andrew.

A point of interest however, because I need to look at it further but the reference to the Tyrone cousin Thom Carroll may be my Father's uncle that went to live in San Francisco.  The reference to a cousin throws it off, in that Andrew was born in Fermanagh and there would be a distance between the two (especially at that time).

Your reference to Nurse Clarke may be correct but the statement regarding that the informant was not Teresa Ross is wrong.  This was in response to a letter seeking more information from the Tyrone Constitution.  She and a P. J. McClean did respond; and, I did have the opportunity to talk to Mr. McClean of Beragh.  It may have been that Teresa quoted what Nurse Clarke may have said, but the quotation in my post had nothing to do with Nurse Clarke.  ;D

My posting of the birth of John may have been cogent for the Ulster Historical report but when I made that reference, and the remarks, were based on the National Archives and it was an error that I did not pick up at this time.  8)  It was my boo boo and not the gatherers of that report.  :-X

There are always skeletons in our closets, some that we may find interesting except that they belong there.

Thank you, aghadowey  :)

Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #25 on: Monday 08 October 18 09:27 BST (UK) »
You have two references to what appear to be "manifests" from the City of Rome and the Oceanic, but did not explain what the context was to conclude that Andrew and Ellen were associated with those boats (or ships).  These two points apparently conflict in that they were both 1899 but the ages differed for Andrew.
Once I found the marriage in Manhattan I started looking for Andrew travelling to America and discovered the outward voyage. Since we know that Andrew & Ellen were back in Ireland in time for son John to be born in Nov.1900 it was then a matter of looking for them to return (hopefully together). The next step would probably be to look for Ellen travelling to America prior to Nov.1900.
Ages are often incorrect in manifests, census records, etc. partly because many people had no idea of exactly when they were born.

A point of interest however, because I need to look at it further but the reference to the Tyrone cousin Thom Carroll may be my Father's uncle that went to live in San Francisco.  The reference to a cousin throws it off, in that Andrew was born in Fermanagh and there would be a distance between the two (especially at that time).
It may be that the ‘cousin’ was actually Ellen McCarroll’s cousin. It may be that Andrew gave him as cousin to make it slightly easier to get through immigration procedure. It’s not uncommon to find such things in passenger manifests. Also Andrew was born in Co. Fermanagh we don’t know where he was living before he went to America so he might have moved somewhere away from home, most likely to work, and met Ellen (or she could have moved nearer Andrew). In any case it’s clear that they returned to Ireland soon after marrying.

Your reference to Nurse Clarke may be correct but the statement regarding that the informant was not Teresa Ross is wrong.
The informant on the death registration was a Nurse Clarke as can plainly be seen on the entry in the death register. Teresa Ross may be the person that told you about the death but she was not the informant for the death.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: The Carroll's and the Coady's and Bogan's
« Reply #26 on: Monday 08 October 18 14:46 BST (UK) »
 :) The reason why at that time there was no one to figure out just when Andrew was born, you did it.  Like my grandparents, but reversed, Ellen went to the U.S. to be with Andrew and my grandmother Agnes Bridget Gaffigan came to Ireland to be with Michael.  But that is another story.

Unlike Aggie B., I would think that the mores were a little more strict regarding Ellen.  In Ireland, at the turn of the century, what was considered moral and ethical behavior and determined the structure the difference between right and wrong, it would seem very unlikely that Ellen would place such in the dustbin. That is not to say, it could not have occurred.  :P

But until we hear from the relatives that have knowledge of those things it will be a bother.

Your having located these manifests is a wonderment, unless you have a much greater touch regarding the Bogans.  Your previous reference to possible problems might be a tell.

aghadowey, there are some things that you and I share, and it is a capacity to think along the lines that there is only one way to have it.  For example, here you have the death certificate and I only had Ms. Ross.  You sometimes fail to see that with the very complex factors that make up these things, like the business with the marriage of Ellen and Andrew, there can be other ways to describe the happenstance.  As a real old attorney I would sometimes fail to see that there are other ways to approach a problem.

You have quite a capacity regarding all of these things, and it must be acknowledged that you are so much ahead of the game than all of us put together - seeking to find out about the past.  It must be remembered that we all appreciate your knowledge and insights.

jjc
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.