Author Topic: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused  (Read 2296 times)

Offline benn34

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was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« on: Sunday 07 October 18 13:57 BST (UK) »
Hi guys,

My apologies if this seems a weird question but I am extremely confused about baptist records and it doesn't help that I am poorly today and my concentration is out of whack.

The situation is I have been researching and stuck on my 4th great grandad Thomas Lamb for years. I have his marriage, all his children who were born under the C of E and I have his burial record. Now with his burial record I located it in the Non Conformists & Non Parochial record set and he was buried 1821 in East Street Baptist Chapel, Walworth, Surrey. It states the denomination as baptist and with his age it puts his birth around 1789. My questions is because of where he was buried was his birth registered as baptist? (something I cant seem to locate), also something else that is puzzling is one of his baby daughters Sarah Lamb was buried a few weeks after him in the same place in 1822 but she was born under C of E. Was this normal?

Thank you


Ann




Offline stanmapstone

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 07 October 18 14:23 BST (UK) »
What do you mean by "was his birth registered as baptist?"

Stan
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Online Viktoria

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 07 October 18 14:28 BST (UK) »
Firstly, hope you are back on form quite soon.
Not able to answer your questions but the following may be relevant,some other ROotsChatters may
be more knowledgeable.
Baptist’s were not actually Baptised until they were adults,it was considered necessary for  them to understand what baptism meant,its origins  etc. A baby or young child would not be able to do that
hence waiting until. People were adults.
Now whether until they had been baptised they could not say they were Baptist’s and there was no
provision for anything other than ,Cof E,R.C.Non Conformist(which would include Baptist’s, Methodists,both Wesleyan and Primitive).
Perhaps something had to be entered so Cof E may heave been the best option.
Not sure of dates here but Non Coms  were at times frowned upon especially if their employer was Cof E.
Sorry if this obfuscates the issue.
Best of luck. Viktoria

Offline benn34

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 07 October 18 14:29 BST (UK) »
What do you mean by "was his birth registered as baptist?"

Stan

Hi Stan,

I'm confused by it as well, its something someone said to me yesterday that his birth record should be in the non conformist & non parochial records as a baptist since his burial is there but I cant find anything.


Offline benn34

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 07 October 18 14:35 BST (UK) »
Firstly, hope you are back on form quite soon.
Not able to answer your questions but the following may be relevant,some other ROotsChatters may
be more knowledgeable.
Baptist’s were not actually Baptised until they were adults,it was considered necessary for  them to understand what baptism meant,its origins  etc. A baby or young child would not be able to do that
hence waiting until. People were adults.
Now whether until they had been baptised they could not say they were Baptist’s and there was no
provision for anything other than ,Cof E,R.C.Non Conformist(which would include Baptist’s, Methodists,both Wesleyan and Primitive).
Perhaps something had to be entered so Cof E may heave been the best option.
Not sure of dates here but Non Coms  were at times frowned upon especially if their employer was Cof E.
Sorry if this obfuscates the issue.
Best of luck. Viktoria

Thank you Viktoria that is abit more understandable and would explain why I cant find a birth for him, I will look and see if he was baptised as an adult.

Hopefully I will be back to full health quite soon.

 :)

Online PrawnCocktail

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 07 October 18 14:46 BST (UK) »
I'm confused by it as well, its something someone said to me yesterday that his birth record should be in the non conformist & non parochial records as a baptist since his burial is there but I cant find anything.

Not necessarily. He may have been converted quite late on in life.

People were wary of officially joining the Baptists, since that meant being publicly baptised by full immersion. So a lot of people hung round the edges, going to services, but never actually joining. I have seen people having children baptised in the C of E, but also listed in the Baptist records. I have seen them have their children registered in the Baptist records, then when they fell sick, baptised in the C of E, and buried in the churchyard. I've seen people baptised in C of E as infants, married (as they all had to be) in the C of E, start having children baptised in C of E - and then later children registered in the Baptist church. And then being buried in the C of E churchyard. All without actually joining the Baptist Church in question. Or maybe joining it many years after starting to go there.

It may be worth seeing if there are any records for your particular Baptist Church other than just the registers of births. Sometimes the records of church meetings or membership have survived, often called the "Church Book". That would answer the question about whether they had actually joined the church. But as mid-life conversions were a regular occurance, there is no reason at all why they should have been non-conformist at birth.

Church books for this date can usually be found in the local record office, if they have survived. Sometimes you can find them listed in the National Archives catalogue, but still accessed through local record offices.
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Offline benn34

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 07 October 18 14:52 BST (UK) »
I'm confused by it as well, its something someone said to me yesterday that his birth record should be in the non conformist & non parochial records as a baptist since his burial is there but I cant find anything.

Not necessarily. He may have been converted quite late on in life.

People were wary of officially joining the Baptists, since that meant being publicly baptised by full immersion. So a lot of people hung round the edges, going to services, but never actually joining. I have seen people having children baptised in the C of E, but also listed in the Baptist records. I have seen them have their children registered in the Baptist records, then when they fell sick, baptised in the C of E, and buried in the churchyard. I've seen people baptised in C of E as infants, married (as they all had to be) in the C of E, start having children baptised in C of E - and then later children registered in the Baptist church. And then being buried in the C of E churchyard. All without actually joining the Baptist Church in question. Or maybe joining it many years after starting to go there.

It may be worth seeing if there are any records for your particular Baptist Church other than just the registers of births. Sometimes the records of church meetings or membership have survived, often called the "Church Book". That would answer the question about whether they had actually joined the church. But as mid-life conversions were a regular occurance, there is no reason at all why they should have been non-conformist at birth.

Church books for this date can usually be found in the local record office, if they have survived. Sometimes you can find them listed in the National Archives catalogue, but still accessed through local record offices.

Oh fantastic I've never heard of the Church Book, I will check the National Archives and thank you for this information as well  :)

Offline Marmaduke 123

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 07 October 18 20:01 BST (UK) »
Baptists did record the birth of children to members of their congregation, but if your ancestor converted later in life that obviously wouldn't  have happened. Sometimes this was in a dedicated register, but sometimes in the church minute book. Unfortunately it's quite common for these not to have survived, because they were retained at the church and perhaps subsequently lost.

If the church where he was buried is still active I would contact them directly and ask if they have any other records concerning him, such as when he joined (if he did).
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Offline benn34

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Re: was my 4th great grandad born as a baptist? so confused
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 07 October 18 21:43 BST (UK) »
Baptists did record the birth of children to members of their congregation, but if your ancestor converted later in life that obviously wouldn't  have happened. Sometimes this was in a dedicated register, but sometimes in the church minute book. Unfortunately it's quite common for these not to have survived, because they were retained at the church and perhaps subsequently lost.

If the church where he was buried is still active I would contact them directly and ask if they have any other records concerning him, such as when he joined (if he did).

Hi,

Unfortunately the baptist chapel where he was buried no longer exists and was demolished in the mid 1800s I think. I have been in touch with a baptist church that is not far from where he was buried but they think any records from that chapel would probably be with the national archives.