Author Topic: William higginbotham  (Read 5378 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 13 October 18 17:35 BST (UK) »
my great grandmother elizabeth higginbotham, was William Jr daughter , she was born 1871 wexford but on her Baptismal she,s sarah , I have all william higginbotham Jr and his wife sarah dempsey  (my great great grandparents ) children's birth certs and death certificates
Diarmuid

Is this Sarah's birth registration 1871?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03307/2212135.pdf
Supt. Registrar's district Wexford; Reg. district Wexford.
Place of birth: Selskar;
Father:  William Higginbotham, residence Selskar; occupation: labourer;
Mother:  Sarah Higginbotham, formerly Dempsey.
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Offline Diarmuidgannon1916

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 13 October 18 17:56 BST (UK) »
Yes 1871 it will be sarah ,

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 13 October 18 18:45 BST (UK) »


A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped  to marry his father.

There is no such implication. The priest simply recorded the father's name.

Was it usual for an illegitimate baby to be recorded in a baptism register with father's surname rather than mother's surname?

Not unusual. For Catholics. In Ireland.

In England, my understanding is that things were rather different. The legal position, of course, was that a bastard had no legal father. "Filius nullis" is the legal term. But my experience is that Irish Catholic registers name the father, where known.  Of course, many registers don't give any child an explicit surname at all, which creates ambiguity. 

In Ireland, bastards were typically know by their reputed father's name. In life, that is, not just in the parish registers. I stand to be corrected, but I believe the opposite was true in England? It would also be interesting to study if the introduction of civil registration in 1864 changed this practice - the reputed father not being named at all, on civil registration records,  by regulation.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 13 October 18 19:10 BST (UK) »
my great grandmother elizabeth higginbotham, was William Jr daughter , she was born 1871 wexford but on her Baptismal she,s sarah , I have all william higginbotham Jr and his wife sarah dempsey  (my great great grandparents ) children's birth certs and death certificates
Diarmuid

Is this Sarah's birth registration 1871?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03307/2212135.pdf
Supt. Registrar's district Wexford; Reg. district Wexford.
Place of birth: Selskar;
Father:  William Higginbotham, residence Selskar; occupation: labourer;
Mother:  Sarah Higginbotham, formerly Dempsey.

But the child was baptized as Elizabeth, not Sarah. Probably confusion between the child's and mother's names on the civil registration?

Name:    Elizabeth Higginbotham    
Date of Birth:    
Date of Baptism:    07-Mar-1871
Address:       
Parish/District:    Wexford
Gender:    Female    
County    Co. Wexford
Denomination:    Roman Catholic
Father:    William Higginbotham    
Mother:    Sarah Dempsey
Occupation:          
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1:    William Murphy
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2:    Bridget Dempsey
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 13 October 18 19:11 BST (UK) »


A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped  to marry his father.

There is no such implication. The priest simply recorded the father's name.

Was it usual for an illegitimate baby to be recorded in a baptism register with father's surname rather than mother's surname?

Not unusual. For Catholics. In Ireland.

In England, my understanding is that things were rather different. The legal position, of course, was that a bastard had no legal father. "Filius nullis" is the legal term. But my experience is that Irish Catholic registers name the father, where known.  Of course, many registers don't give the child an explicit surname at all, which creates ambiguity.

Thanks. I haven't come across any illegitimate births in any of my Irish lines. I would have expected William to have been called Macoy in the baptism register after his mother, regardless of what surname he was known by in later life.
One of my English lines had several illegitimate births in 2 generations. Every child had the mother's surname in baptism and birth registers, even when the father was named and even the baby whose parents married 2 years after his birth and whose father's name was on birth certificate. Babies had mother's surname for all other illegitimate births or baptisms I can recall from 19thC. Father's surname was sometimes added as middle name.
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Offline Wexflyer

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 13 October 18 19:25 BST (UK) »
....You have to forgive me but I am from Dublin ....
Kind regards
Diarmuid

I entirely understand, just wanted to make sure I got your attention - did not want you to go down a wrong path! 😁
I think the key thing for you to do right now is to get a copy of the 1853 marriage registration of William Higginbotham in Wexford. This is may well be the father of your William, Jr.  The registration record will give his address and occupation, and also his father's name and occupation. As you live in Dublin, you can get this easily from the registration office. Please let us all know what it says!
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 13 October 18 19:30 BST (UK) »
One of my English lines had several illegitimate births in 2 generations. Every child had the mother's surname in baptism and birth registers, even when the father was named and even the baby whose parents married 2 years after his birth and whose father's name was on birth certificate. Babies had mother's surname for all other illegitimate births or baptisms I can recall from 19thC. Father's surname was sometimes added as middle name.

I have no English lines, so no direct experience, but what you outline is exactly in accord with what research guides state was the practice in England. But the Irish Catholic practice was very clearly and consistently the opposite.

Of course, the English were all dreadfully loyal, and law abiding.  The Irish, not so much!
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 13 October 18 19:32 BST (UK) »
Some other children of William & Sarah:
Michael 1863  (reply #22 Wexflyer)
William 1865   (reply #23 Wexflyer)
William 1873  address Trimmer's lane, Wexford
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03182/2167041.pdf
James 1880  address Selskar
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02849/2044246.pdf
John 1880  address Selskar
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02768/2016056.pdf

All mother Sarah, formerly Dempsey. All births Wexford Superintendent Registrar's district; Wexford registration district.

So the marriage of William Higginbotham to Sarah Dempsey in Wexford parish looks to be the right one.

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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: William higginbotham
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 13 October 18 19:44 BST (UK) »
Of course, the English were all dreadfully loyal, and law abiding.  The Irish, not so much!

On the other hand, some of my English ancestors often engaged in hanky-panky whereas my Irish ones seemed to have been moral. The English ones may have had more opportunity + a wider pool of people with whom to misbehave.  Both lots altered facts to fit situations.  :)
Cowban