Robert James Neill

[Matt Rogers]

My great-grandfather Robert James Neill died in a Bristol hospital back in September 1961. The oral history that has been passed down to me is that when he was nearing the end of his life those nearest and dearest to him tried to track down any living relatives from his side of the family. However, they could find no records of who they might be and, more importantly, no birth certificate. As a result, his age on the death certificate is given as 'about 62'. I discovered that he worked as a lorry driver for the West Gloucestershire Water Company and after delving into the Bristol Archives found two handwritten pension cards from the late 1940'/50's. They give two dates of birth - the 10th or 12th August 1899. The latter date is repeated in the 1939 Register for England and Wales. However, his marriage certificate states that he was 21 in May 1919 (he would have been 19 if the August 1899 date is correct). To complicate things further, I have digital copies of a re-enlistement register (he served with the Royal Army Service Corps) which states that he was aged 23 years and 1 month in late January 1919! This source of information shows that his place of birth was 'St.Mary's, Belfast, Down' and my father remembers that he had a distinct Irish accent. His marriage certificate also says that his father was John Neill of the (Royal?) Irish Rifles. I have now hit a bit of a brick wall regarding his precise place/date of birth and, indeed, if there are any descendants of his relatives still living in Ireland? Any ideas? I really need a breakthrough right now... 

[iluleah]

Hi and welcome to rootchat 

So he was born in Belfast Northern Ireland, so apply for a copy of his birth certificate https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/order-birth-certificate-online

Have you looked on the 1901/1911 census to see if you can find the family? If they were living in NI then it will give you the family group and it is online, free and the records images too

You need to do the research about him and follow the records back, if he had siblings and any stayed in NI then potentially there could still be some but rootschat is not the place to look for living people.

[aghadowey]

You don't need to apply to GRO to see his birth certificate- Irish births up until 1916 are online (free)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

I can't see a likely match in Belfast or counties Antrim or Down but the information you have doesn't really make for a straightforward search.

If he was illegitimate he could have made up father's details for the marriage certificate. If his father was in the military that may not have been his occupation when Robert was born or in 1901/1911 census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

[Cwellan CoDown]

He may have given his age as 21 instead of 19 on his marriage certificate, as if under 21 he would have needed permission to marry.

Can you summarise what you know about Robert

Father - John in RIR at date of Roberts wedding  in May 19? Who did Robert marry - and what is Roberts residence and occupation at the time of marriage?

What religion is Robert

Do you have him on any census - 1901 or 1911?

[Cwellan CoDown]

I have not had any luck looking for a Robert James on the census with a father John

But there is a Robert James living with his grandparents - the Flecks

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Islandmagee/Ballydown/989755/

[aghadowey]

I have not had any luck looking for a Robert James on the census with a father John
But there is a Robert James living with his grandparents - the Flecks
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Islandmagee/Ballydown/989755/

Maybe not 

Martha Fleck of Islandmagee married Robert Neill 1898-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1898/10415/5792338.pdf
Son James Cowan Neill born 1900-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01977/1762045.pdf
Son Robert born 1910-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01563/1631106.pdf

[Matt Rogers]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my query about my great-grandfather so far. The information that I have found so far appear to show that he was an unremarkable person who kept a low profile. The military records show that he served with the 1155 MT (motorized transport) Coy of the Army Service Corps based in County Cork, a company about which very little is known. At some point he was transferred to the 776 MT Coy in Chatham, Tonbridge, re-enlisting in January 1919 before being finally discharged from the British Army in 1922. Somehow, he ended up settling in Kingswood, a prosperous but still developing suburban town on the eastern fringes of Bristol. His marriage certificate states that he was lodging in a with a family right on the northern edge of Kingswood before the surrounding area became more built up in the 1930's. He married my great-grandmother in May 1919, went on to father three children (all now deceased) and continued to drive lorries for a living. At one time, he was a Boys Brigade leader. He and his family lived at several addresses in Kingswood over a 40 year period before his death in 1961. However, anecdotal evidence suggests that there was a hidden side to his personality. It turns out that my mother knew (through my late great-grandmother) about his Irish connection. Apparently, he was reluctant to revisit his home country because he feared for his personal safety. Furthermore, he was well known for expressing strong pro-Irish Republican views. As someone pointed out he may not have been entirely truthful about his age, particularly on his marriage certificate where he claimed to 21 years old but was probably only 19 at the time. This could also be true in respect of his military service (23 years old in January 1919). Someone else also suggested that he may have been an illegitimate child (perhaps even an orphan?) which might explain that, so far, there are no good matches to be found through the available genealogical sources. I am also wondering if he was a Catholic by birth - he was buried just three days after his death which I understand is traditional for someone of this faith or so my Catholic friends tell me. His place of birth is recorded as being in the old parish of St. Mary's, Belfast, Down in the Diocese of Down and Connor. However, I have been unable to trace him through the Catholic Church of St. Mary's. So much speculation and unanswered questions...where do I go from here?

[aghadowey]

I am also wondering if he was a Catholic by birth - he was buried just three days after his death which I understand is traditional for someone of this faith or so my Catholic friends tell me.

It's certainly possible that he was Catholic but most burials, Catholic and Protestant, in Ireland take place within three days (unless waiting for family members to arrive back home, waiting for post-mortum or crematorium slot).

[Matt Rogers]

Hi everyone - a bit of a development recently. I remembered from experience that a great-great grandmother of mine caused a few problems during my genealogical research. She was baptized Annie Amelia at Radstock in 1876, appeared as Emily Amelia on an 1881 census return before moving to and marrying my great-great grandfather in South Wales in 1897. By this time, she was simply known as Amelia and this name appeared on all the official records from thereon. With this in mind, I revisited the government-supported Irish Genealogy website and searched for any male with the surname Neill born in Ireland in 1899. As you can imagine, this pulled up quite a long list of potential candidates but just one person stood out. This was a James Neill born on the 14th of August (bearing in mind that my great-grandfather apparently had three dates of birth, including this one, on his works pension records!) at 114 Lindsay Street, Belfast, Antrim. His parents were James and Agnes (nee McCartney). I looked on Google maps and found that although the street still existed number 114 did not and it looked like the whole area had been rebuilt fairly recently. Does anyone know about the history of this location? was it subject to some sort of slum clearance in the past? The next step is to see if I can find out more about his parents!