Thomas Roberts & Catherine Williams m 6/8/1883 St Michael, Aigburth

[Gordon Hughes]

Thanks Colin,

Yes I had seen those, but given that Catherine was 21 at the time of her marriage in 1883, then Catherine Mary seems a bit too young, and Catherine Ellen seems a bit too old. Mind you, I've seen some fibs told on marriage records, particularly when they're a bit young at the time.

[Jamjar]

Where was Thomas Senior born?

Is this Jnr’s birth?

ROBERTS, THOMAS mmn WILLIAMS     
GRO Reference: 1885  D Quarter in TOXTETH PARK  Volume 08B  Page 203

Jamjar

[Gordon Hughes]

Thomas snr was born in Liverpool. In the 1881 census he can be found staying with George and Ann Runacus at 5 Ballington Street. At that time he appears to be a brick maker.

George and Ann (Roberts) married in 1876. Ann's father was Thomas Roberts, a baker, so I'm assuming that Ann and Thomas senior were siblings.

Yes, I believe you're right about Thomas Roberts born in 1885. I have a copy of his birth certificate which tallies with the information on his death certificate (he died in Cornwall).

[ColC]

The age on the marriage cert might just be to note she was of age maybe.

Catherine Ellen had a brother noted below.
William Humphrey Williams born Liverpool   20 Feb 1862

1871 – Denio, Pwllheli, Caernarvonshire
Hannah Williams    32   Mariners wife, born Bangor
William H Williams    9   Son born Liverpool
John M Williams     7   Son born Pwllheli
Thomas Williams    3      ditto

Colin

[Gordon Hughes]

Hi Colin,

Ah, now that's an interesting point. I was taking the age 21 as literal but they could have just put that instead of 'of full age', which would have been 21, right ? I must admit I've not seen that before. I've seen the more common form 'of full age'. That being the case, it throws a completely different complexion on the situation and could explain why all my searches were fruitless.

I really hadn't seen that one before. You think you've seen it all before then something else comes along....

I'll follow that line of thought in my renewed searches.

Gordon.

[ShaunJ]

The age on the marriage cert might just be to note she was of age maybe.

I'm afraid that theory doesn't hold water. The other couple on that register page have ages 36 and 31. On the next page the ages are 31, 28, 21 and 18.

I see there was another Thomas Roberts/Catherine Williams marriage, at St James's Toxteth in 1881.

What is the father's occupation on the 1885 birth certificate?

[Gordon Hughes]

Father's occupation at the time of Thomas' birth was milk dealer, as per the marriage certificate. Address was 5 Greaves Street.

Thanks, Gordon.

[ColC]

1881 Bangor, Caernarvonshire
Catherine Ellen Williams. Niece, now 22, is still with Mary Jones now age 75, Mary has been noted as unmarried on all returns. Sadly it looks like Mary died and left the house to Catherine Ellen, who is still there in 1891 so not the one to marry Thomas.
Sorry Gordon but it might be best to look at the other Catherine, who might have lied about her age?

Colin

[ColC]

The other Catherine for info.

Abode not clear probably Athol St. Father a Mariner
Catherine Mary Williams   12 Mar 1865   Liverpool   William Williams, Alice Williams

Possible Hospital Patient 1871 & Servant 1881 both in Liverpool.

William Williams, Mariner, father William a Labourer deceased, married Alice Valentine, father John a Falconer. 20 Jul 1859, Everton, St Augustine  Both of full age & single. Witnesses William Atherton & Alice Roberts.

Others baptisms Liverpool William & Alice father a mariner
Hannah Maria Williams 20 Aug 1862 abode Athol St.
Robert Williams15 Mar 1868 abode Bisham St?

Family with Thomas Ashton & his family   1871   St Mary, Liverpool
William Williams    47   Boarder, mariner born Denbighshire
Alice Williams    42   Wife born Manchester
John Williams    10   Son born Liverpool
Ann M Williams    9          Ditto (could this be Annie)?
Robert Williams    3      ditto
So maybe Catherine in Hospital above?      

No further census for family maybe for children but in conclusive.
Possible deaths for William 1871 – 1881 none for Alice but there are possible remarriages in period.

Possible birth for Alice Valentine Baptism13 Jul 1828 Horwich, Lancashire, however father John noted as printer?

Colin